From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-3.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YLzXI-0001Az-KK for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 12 Feb 2015 19:34:52 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) client-ip=198.252.153.129; envelope-from=justusranvier@riseup.net; helo=mx1.riseup.net; Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) id 1YLzXG-0006Lu-Nz for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Thu, 12 Feb 2015 19:34:52 +0000 Received: from plantcutter.riseup.net (plantcutter-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.121]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C7CBB419CA for ; Thu, 12 Feb 2015 19:34:44 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: justusranvier) with ESMTPSA id 57EC422730 Received: from [192.168.202.127] (unknown [192.168.202.127]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by nobelium.whale.ddns.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 92C0EDB88C for ; Thu, 12 Feb 2015 13:34:07 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <54DD003E.2060508@riseup.net> Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 19:34:22 +0000 From: Justus Ranvier MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net References: <20150212064719.GA6563@savin.petertodd.org> <356E7F6E-300A-4127-9885-2183FB1DE447@gmail.com> <54DCECE4.3020802@riseup.net> <54DCFBB5.3080202@gmail.com> In-Reply-To: <54DCFBB5.3080202@gmail.com> OpenPGP: id=EAD9E623; url=http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2A5FDA70EAD9E623 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------040300020607020705080708" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.5 at mx1 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: -1.6 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [198.252.153.129 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines X-Headers-End: 1YLzXG-0006Lu-Nz Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4 X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 12 Feb 2015 19:34:52 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------040300020607020705080708 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA256 On 02/12/2015 07:15 PM, Alan Reiner wrote: > I'll add fuel to the fire here, and express that I believe that > replace-by-fee is good in the long-term. Peter is not breaking > the zero-conf, it was already broken, and not admitting it creates > a false sense of security. I don't want to see systems that are > built on the assumption that zero-conf tx are safe solely because > it has always appeared safe. You can argue about rational miner > behaviors all day, but in a decentralized system you have no idea > what miners consider rational, or speculate about their incentives. > As noted elsewhere in the thread, there are two problems with this analysis: 1. It asserts that zero-confirmation transactions are in a binary state of safe/broken instead of recognizing that relying on them is a non-binary risk analysis on the part of a merchant. 2. Assumptions about what is profitable for miners are based on all miners having short time horizons for calculating profits. In addition, I'll add that there is an assumption that honest actors can not alter their behavior in response to changing conditions. Since scorched-earth solutions to problems are apparently acceptable now, what would stop more honest node operators from patching their nodes to blacklist any peer that relays replace-by-fee transactions, and maybe even publish an IP address list of those peers? Punishing Bitcoin users for not adopting somebody's pet solution to a problem neither responsible nor ethical. Child-pays-for-parent allows for stuck transactions to be cleared from the mempool, and allows recipients of zero-conf transactions to adjust their risk exposure as much or as little as they like. It's a solution that gives Bitcoin users more freedom, instead of trying to coerce them into pre-determined directions. - -- Support online privacy by using email encryption whenever possible. 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