From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YPYxH-0002pP-Kz for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:00:27 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of riseup.net designates 198.252.153.129 as permitted sender) client-ip=198.252.153.129; envelope-from=justusranvier@riseup.net; helo=mx1.riseup.net; Received: from mx1.riseup.net ([198.252.153.129]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:AES256-SHA:256) (Exim 4.76) id 1YPYxG-0004FI-8J for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:00:27 +0000 Received: from berryeater.riseup.net (berryeater-pn.riseup.net [10.0.1.120]) (using TLSv1 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES256-SHA (256/256 bits)) (Client CN "*.riseup.net", Issuer "COMODO RSA Domain Validation Secure Server CA" (verified OK)) by mx1.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 16C92412A2 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:00:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) (Authenticated sender: justusranvier) with ESMTPSA id 9A9264240C Received: from [192.168.202.178] (unknown [192.168.202.178]) (using TLSv1.2 with cipher ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 (128/128 bits)) (No client certificate requested) by nobelium.whale.ddns.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id F3AA7DD6F7 for ; Sun, 22 Feb 2015 10:00:19 -0600 (CST) Message-ID: <54E9FD05.3000807@localhost.local> Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 10:00:05 -0600 From: Justus Ranvier MIME-Version: 1.0 To: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net References: <20150222123428.GA6570@savin.petertodd.org> <2953246.T2DHreG0Tu@crushinator> In-Reply-To: <2953246.T2DHreG0Tu@crushinator> OpenPGP: id=EAD9E623; url=http://pgp.mit.edu/pks/lookup?op=get&search=0x2A5FDA70EAD9E623 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="------------030006090006060000090704" X-Virus-Scanned: clamav-milter 0.98.5 at mx1 X-Virus-Status: Clean X-Spam-Score: -1.4 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [198.252.153.129 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_HELO_PASS SPF: HELO matches SPF record -0.0 T_RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid 0.0 T_DKIM_INVALID DKIM-Signature header exists but is not valid 0.0 UNPARSEABLE_RELAY Informational: message has unparseable relay lines X-Headers-End: 1YPYxG-0004FI-8J Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] alternate proposal opt-in miner takes double-spend (Re: replace-by-fee v0.10.0rc4) X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 22 Feb 2015 16:00:27 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------030006090006060000090704 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- Hash: SHA1 On 02/22/2015 07:50 AM, Matt Whitlock wrote: > This happened to one of the merchants at the Bitcoin 2013 > conference in San Jose. They sold some T-shirts and accepted > zero-confirmation transactions. The transactions depended on other > unconfirmed transactions, which never confirmed, so this merchant > never got their money. >=20 > I keep telling people not to accept transactions with zero > confirmations, but no one listens. A better solution is to track the failure rate of zero confirmation transactions, and adjust prices accordingly to cover the expected loss. This is what every merchant *already does* since no payment method has a 0% fraud rate. Even physical cash has a probability of being counterfeit, and the prices you pay for things at a convenience store already have that risk priced in. The idea that zero confirmation transactions require a 100% guarantee is a strawman, especially since there exists no number of confirmations the actually produce a 100% irreversibility guarantee. 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