From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.193] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YzgkZ-0006jg-EW for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 02 Jun 2015 07:36:39 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from mail-ob0-f179.google.com ([209.85.214.179]) by sog-mx-3.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1YzgkY-0004zp-FF for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 02 Jun 2015 07:36:39 +0000 Received: by obcnx10 with SMTP id nx10so116142164obc.2 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2015 00:36:33 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=jOYUMUg238ewd8f9J2z9yilGnHNJhua33w2o4/V9ucY=; b=FJ4ewNnK3x+IEkQTujD1CT/o+32L2qGf/4vBOu/yJHdGRFCh5I6kGhG6Na3f1EeH3k +y9zkwPj2ZkTpkiv7eTNSE92yJGLb/NunYxJJgI1rZgPEeZs7sKSruPPUtfki3/YEjNs ST5R+i05Zl3jWUVpgs75G+0ranaop0+B8KCzouieGXRsZcN/6eY81llCw/1fnPIDiMjc CO+gLT3CpdzMpIHCry5fzk0T3SkyWXgXTKFgY2Ohh3Hf1lzfZER5ryXsrKK/xU8grR6e ar7uK2tDCoAFnOYkdWQRDSTl0tDhoCSN0q93pj32K6tGRS1oTxRsUK1w9f7OnzVzxxWz XqCw== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkvPs4S8QlxsIcDQRJzYVSuY/nZF9PjO8UlH0qyEhOWKXz+5DYhcYYFoPBw6OKoATDD2DeY X-Received: by 10.202.175.87 with SMTP id y84mr20521777oie.22.1433228979371; Tue, 02 Jun 2015 00:09:39 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.6.163] (ip-64-134-128-31.public.wayport.net. [64.134.128.31]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id s3sm8949852obt.27.2015.06.02.00.09.37 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 02 Jun 2015 00:09:38 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <556CF426.3030204@voskuil.org> Date: Mon, 01 Jun 2015 17:09:10 -0700 From: Eric Voskuil User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Hearn , =?ISO-8859-1?Q?J=E9r=F4me_Legoupil?= References: In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="CumUDxICj0m22fjT4T2lViMpPErEKFBBh" X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 1.1 DATE_IN_PAST_06_12 Date: is 6 to 12 hours before Received: date X-Headers-End: 1YzgkY-0004zp-FF Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposed alternatives to the 20MB step X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 07:36:39 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --CumUDxICj0m22fjT4T2lViMpPErEKFBBh Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/01/2015 08:55 AM, Mike Hearn wrote: >> Decentralization is the core of Bitcoin's security model and thus that's what gives Bitcoin its value. > No. Usage is what gives Bitcoin value. Nonsense. Visa, Dollar, Euro, Yuan, Peso have usage. The value in Bitcoin is *despite* it's far lesser usage. Yes, the price is a function of demand, but demand is a function of utility. Despite orders of magnitude less usage than state currencies, Bitcoin has utility. This premium *only* exists due to its lack of centralized control. I would not work full time, or at all, on Bitcoin if it was not for decentralization; nor would I hold any of it. I doubt anyone would show an interest in Bitcoin if it was not decentralized. If it centralized even you would be forced to find something else to do, because Bitcoin "usage" would drop to zero. > It's kind of maddening that I have to point this out. Decentralisation is a means to an end. No, it was/is the primary objective. Paypal had already been done. If anything is maddening it's that you of all people can't see this. When people talk about the core innovation of Bitcoin, it's a conversation about Byzantine Generals, not wicked growth hacking. > in April 2009 and it was perfectly decentralised [...] every wallet was a full node and every computer was capable of mining. So if you believe what you just wrote [...] Bitcoin's value has gone down every day since An obvious non sequitur. By way of example, if 10 of 10 participants are capable of mining it is not more decentralized than if 1,000 in 100,000 are doing so. 1,000 *people* in control vs. 10 is two orders of magnitude more decentralized. The *percentage* of the community that mines is totally irrelevant, it's the absolute number of (independent) people that matters. I'm not making a statement on block size, just trying to help ensure that ill-considered ideas, like this inversion of the core value proposition, stay on the margins. e --CumUDxICj0m22fjT4T2lViMpPErEKFBBh Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBAgAGBQJVbPQrAAoJEDzYwH8LXOFOGscIAJ2gtJlU7zBfLZshntby0Fxs QJbjaNXCNQLXfGa+udcFeKoNiQerOGKlsvX3hLYxXa7nYAoJNemMLbWLzl8CBSrw h8+ONCN7oQ6qOZ41gWgTIwzblnKLJtayUcdnytLp5fzP8RsPA2ma8lZQi6oaCrj2 rBnWLBeDqDAenpqqS6TYErYWFz3u7b1+QNf3dfZxcEQPyo/W7FlEz3D9EsQKSxFC I+tI6oU3JUODmq4f231wv/QHk/R66wIHxc+lp+qKfgpM+DgnDkGPSIv6dEjA6GYD YmJTR/gous/szO8IUoDTMb2blsuyUF8ugCUym8k9uTgH+MZZS+p4Uy6xAfaVtFo= =l/s9 -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --CumUDxICj0m22fjT4T2lViMpPErEKFBBh--