From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1YzouJ-0008Mp-7u for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 02 Jun 2015 16:19:15 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from mail-ob0-f176.google.com ([209.85.214.176]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1YzouG-0004kY-Vx for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 02 Jun 2015 16:19:15 +0000 Received: by obbea2 with SMTP id ea2so131679864obb.3 for ; Tue, 02 Jun 2015 09:19:07 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to:content-type; bh=MCkMdFNJUOVLbNiATusS+NSgSyaI3q1Z8O+ywlA+exw=; b=PX0Wns5ibOw1SANdyiRQdz7LnhTMEFKlX4fK3b44Kpc79tXWClPnWrNzl2BA9e2tsx a+GYYMtBXkH0nSyFGdFtppBZpZ2FqBNhYJxjoboHUNlgo5CVUwrypfkysGNbS/1Wgegp bgOacdnhNHCrGMdDBBHaP94wKQy9AR4k4ysf+4tkZndhvsDrEFSQcJeBF6JBc1nx0pbb zjVtwHZNK0vXF9xc8AsnVQrQrJFyv/19+pUBnmNF5KuPsAhYovNyih2pHOd9+bLjI8fS 29FXlzIcSUsPShJrdhJqgQJJSsJd9Vly9kX7s+9sL80MbOu3bn87cwJZW9PL2jlX+s45 N8Fg== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQmwgJbmTow7aN59pUfVyvlW0LS0otVd6Sr1xi0blAIuGTI61dwDNt0hvgsFMFg+qBiD03au X-Received: by 10.202.137.78 with SMTP id l75mr3511403oid.110.1433261947507; Tue, 02 Jun 2015 09:19:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.6.163] (ip-64-134-128-31.public.wayport.net. [64.134.128.31]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id sm8sm9695189obb.13.2015.06.02.09.19.06 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Tue, 02 Jun 2015 09:19:06 -0700 (PDT) Message-ID: <556DD770.6060406@voskuil.org> Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 09:18:56 -0700 From: Eric Voskuil User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:24.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/24.5.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Mike Hearn References: <556CF426.3030204@voskuil.org> In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha1; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="jDgQF8fqJGMDfN4M94GJLCfHkGj0EqOjQ" X-Spam-Score: 1.1 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.1 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address X-Headers-End: 1YzouG-0004kY-Vx Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Proposed alternatives to the 20MB step X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jun 2015 16:19:15 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --jDgQF8fqJGMDfN4M94GJLCfHkGj0EqOjQ Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------050009040908010401040205" This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------050009040908010401040205 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/02/2015 04:03 AM, Mike Hearn wrote: > > 1,000 *people* in control vs. 10 is two orders of > > magnitude more decentralized.=20 > > > Yet Bitcoin has got worse by all these metrics: there was a time > before mining pools when there were ~thousands of people mining with > their local CPUs and GPUs. Now the number of full nodes that matter > for block selection number in the dozens, and all the other miners > just follow their blocks blindly. A mining pool is not a person, a full node is not a miner, and cooperation is not control. http://bravenewcoin.com/news/number-of-bitcoin-miners-far-higher-than-pop= ular-estimates/ The entire Bitcoin ecosystem cooperates, that is what consensus means. Establishing proof of that cooperation is the purpose of Bitcoin. Decentralization is about keeping control out of the hands of the state (any entity that would substitute violence for consensus). Nobody has the power to compel the cooperation of individual miners in a pool. When state power is applied to a pool operator the miners (people) retain their vote. e --------------050009040908010401040205 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 06/02/2015 04:03 AM, Mike Hearn wrote:
=C2=A01,000 *people* in control vs. 10 is two orders of
magnitude more decentralized.

Yet Bitcoin has got worse by all these metrics: there was a time before mining pools when there were ~thousands of people mining with their local CPUs and GPUs. Now the number of full nodes that matter for block selection number in the dozens, and all the other miners just follow their blocks blindly.

A mining pool is not a person, a full node is not a miner, and cooperation is not control.

http://braven= ewcoin.com/news/number-of-bitcoin-miners-far-higher-than-popular-estimate= s/

The entire Bitcoin ecosystem cooperates, that is what consensus means. Establishing proof of that cooperation is the purpose of Bitcoin.

Decentralization is about keeping control out of the hands of the state (any entity that would substitute violence for consensus). Nobody has the power to compel the cooperation of individual miners in a pool. When state power is applied to a pool operator the miners (people) retain their vote.

e

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