public inbox for bitcoindev@googlegroups.com
 help / color / mirror / Atom feed
From: Ross Nicoll <jrn@jrn.me.uk>
To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks
Date: Wed, 22 Jul 2015 18:18:45 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <55AFD075.1000806@jrn.me.uk> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAPg+sBgugLSVEwDLXhgey86_rM2fTjGWXFuXsiZioJKCZiHiNg@mail.gmail.com>

[-- Attachment #1: Type: text/plain, Size: 3545 bytes --]

So, if consensus shouldn't really be between the developers (which is 
fine), should we empower users to control consensus? I've been working 
on a fork framework anyway, which can support reasonably arbitrary 
consensus changes (currently against block height, but moving towards 
block time). Theoretically it could be modified to load consensus 
parameters (which block size would have to be added to) from disk at 
startup, rather than having them hard-coded.

Is that considered desirable? Will raise as a PR if so. If not, where do 
we draw a line between developer and user consensus?

Ross

On 22/07/2015 17:52, Pieter Wuille via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>
> Hello all,
>
> I'd like to talk a bit about my view on the relation between the 
> Bitcoin Core project, and the consensus rules of Bitcoin.
>
> I believe it is the responsibility of the maintainers/developers of 
> Bitcoin Core to create software which helps guarantee the security and 
> operation of the Bitcoin network.
>
> In addition to normal software maintenance, bug fixes and performance 
> improvements, this includes DoS protection mechanism deemed necessary 
> to keep the network operational. Sometimes, such (per-node 
> configurable) policies have had economic impact, for example the dust 
> rule.
>
> This also includes participating in discussions about consensus 
> changes, but not the responsibility to decide on them - only to 
> implement them when agreed upon. It would be irresponsible and 
> dangerous to the network and thus the users of the software to risk 
> forks, or to take a leading role in pushing dramatic changes. Bitcoin 
> Core developers obviously have the ability to make any changes to the 
> codebase or its releases, but it is still up to the community to 
> choose to run that code.
>
> Some people have called the prospect of limited block space and the 
> development of a fee market a change in policy compared to the past. I 
> respectfully disagree with that. Bitcoin Core is not running the 
> Bitcoin economy, and its developers have no authority to set its 
> rules. Change in economics is always happening, and should be 
> expected. Worse, intervening in consensus changes would make the 
> ecosystem more dependent on the group taking that decision, not less.
>
> So to point out what I consider obvious: if Bitcoin requires central 
> control over its rules by a group of developers, it is completely 
> uninteresting to me. Consensus changes should be done using consensus, 
> and the default in case of controversy is no change.
>
> ===
>
> My personal opinion is that we - as a community - should indeed let a 
> fee market develop, and rather sooner than later, and that "kicking 
> the can down the road" is an incredibly dangerous precedent: if we are 
> willing to go through the risk of a hard fork because of a fear of 
> change of economics, then I believe that community is not ready to 
> deal with change at all. And some change is inevitable, at any block 
> size. Again, this does not mean the block size needs to be fixed 
> forever, but its intent should be growing with the evolution of 
> technology, not a panic reaction because a fear of change.
>
> But I am not in any position to force this view. I only hope that 
> people don't think a fear of economic change is reason to give up 
> consensus.
>
> -- 
> Pieter
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev


[-- Attachment #2: Type: text/html, Size: 4692 bytes --]

  reply	other threads:[~2015-07-22 17:18 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 86+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
     [not found] <CAPg+sBgs-ouEMu=LOVCmOyCGwfM1Ygxooz0shyvAuHDGGZYfJw@mail.gmail.com>
2015-07-22 16:52 ` [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks Pieter Wuille
2015-07-22 17:18   ` Ross Nicoll [this message]
2015-07-22 17:32   ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-07-22 18:45     ` Bryan Cheng
2015-07-22 17:33   ` Jeff Garzik
2015-07-22 18:01     ` Jeff Garzik
2015-07-22 18:03     ` Alex Morcos
2015-07-22 18:24       ` Jeff Garzik
2015-07-23 12:17         ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-23 16:17           ` Tom Harding
2015-07-23 16:28             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-07-23 16:50               ` cipher anthem
2015-07-23 17:14                 ` Robert Learney
2015-07-23 18:21                   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 18:47                   ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-23 17:43               ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 18:10                 ` Jameson Lopp
2015-07-23 19:14                   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 19:35                     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-07-23 19:39                       ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 19:51                       ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 19:52                     ` Jameson Lopp
2015-07-23 20:26                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-23 20:52                         ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23 23:42                           ` Benedict Chan
     [not found]                             ` <42BF7FEB-320F-43BE-B3D9-1D76CB8B9975@gmai>
2015-07-23 23:57                             ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  0:04                               ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  0:20                                 ` Simon Liu
2015-07-24  0:22                                 ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  0:32                                   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  0:38                                     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  0:45                                     ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  0:49                                       ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  0:53                                         ` Peter Todd
2015-07-24  1:03                                           ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  1:08                                             ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  1:25                                               ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  1:28                                                 ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  1:37                                                   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  1:42                                                   ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-24  1:55                                                     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  2:12                                                       ` [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin, Perceptions, and Expectations Raystonn .
2015-07-24  8:48                                                         ` Jonas Schnelli
2015-07-24  9:42                                                           ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-24 14:37                                                             ` Vincent Truong
2015-07-25  2:18                                                               ` gb
2015-07-25 11:22                                                                 ` Slurms MacKenzie
2015-07-25 15:04                                                                 ` Thomas Kerin
2015-07-24  0:56                                       ` [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-24  1:05                                         ` Jean-Paul Kogelman
2015-07-23 18:12               ` Slurms MacKenzie
2015-07-23 18:57                 ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-23 17:51             ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-24  6:30               ` Tom Harding
2015-07-24  9:24                 ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-24 22:50                   ` Tom Harding
2015-07-28 11:29                     ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-28 11:32                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-28 16:44                       ` Tom Harding
2015-07-28 17:33                         ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-22 19:17     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-22 21:43   ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-22 21:56     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-22 22:01       ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-22 22:09         ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  1:53         ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-22 22:30     ` Jeff Garzik
2015-07-23  0:27   ` Tom Harding
2015-07-23  0:37     ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  4:40   ` Edmund Edgar
2015-07-27 12:08   ` Peter Todd
2015-07-27 12:44     ` Milly Bitcoin
2015-07-22 22:40 Raystonn
2015-07-22 23:42 ` Cory Fields
2015-07-22 23:53   ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  0:05     ` Cory Fields
2015-07-23  0:13       ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  0:34         ` Cory Fields
2015-07-23  0:43           ` Eric Lombrozo
2015-07-23  7:24             ` Ross Nicoll
2015-07-23  0:49         ` Eric Voskuil
2015-07-23 18:12   ` Jorge Timón
     [not found] <BA7ACCE1-81B2-4AC1-B6DD-7A856FD27D52@gmail.com>
2015-07-23  8:24 ` Gareth Williams
2015-07-27 17:05 Alice Larson
2015-07-27 17:22 ` Eric Voskuil
2015-07-28  4:55   ` Wladimir J. van der Laan

Reply instructions:

You may reply publicly to this message via plain-text email
using any one of the following methods:

* Save the following mbox file, import it into your mail client,
  and reply-to-all from there: mbox

  Avoid top-posting and favor interleaved quoting:
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Posting_style#Interleaved_style

* Reply using the --to, --cc, and --in-reply-to
  switches of git-send-email(1):

  git send-email \
    --in-reply-to=55AFD075.1000806@jrn.me.uk \
    --to=jrn@jrn.me.uk \
    --cc=bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org \
    /path/to/YOUR_REPLY

  https://kernel.org/pub/software/scm/git/docs/git-send-email.html

* If your mail client supports setting the In-Reply-To header
  via mailto: links, try the mailto: link
Be sure your reply has a Subject: header at the top and a blank line before the message body.
This is a public inbox, see mirroring instructions
for how to clone and mirror all data and code used for this inbox