From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 62FBF9B for ; Sat, 8 Aug 2015 11:59:44 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail.help.org (mail.help.org [70.90.2.18]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id CE18216B for ; Sat, 8 Aug 2015 11:59:43 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [10.1.10.25] (B [10.1.10.25]) by mail.help.org with ESMTPA ; Sat, 8 Aug 2015 07:59:38 -0400 To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org References: <8185694.hShCHQnpze@coldstorage> <20150808085451.4689995.38052.4163@thomaszander.se> From: Milly Bitcoin Message-ID: <55C5EF2C.6090408@bitcoins.info> Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 07:59:40 -0400 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_20 autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] trust X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 08 Aug 2015 11:59:44 -0000 > Trust takes many different forms and is not a binary function. Many Bitcoiners have a rather unusual notion of trust. While many state the established financial systems cannot be trusted they imply that many within the Bitcoin world need to be trusted. There are some very irresponsible and unusual people who have authority to do things in the Bitcoin world such as manage the Wiki, the Github repository, and are given an emergency alert key. Some of these people are only known by some sort of screen name. If anyone questions any of these processes they are chastised and labeled a "troll". For instance, anyone who questioned Mt. Gox back in 2013 was labeled a "buttcoiner" or something similar. So I would say many people, including many on this list, don't fully understand the claims they are making about the "truslessness" of Bitcoin. >Lightning doesn't require explicit trust, There seems to be semantic issues with describing trust and the lightning network. You need to trust the other party during the transactions in the channel for it to work. Yes there is way to cash out if the other party does not cooperate but that is not the same thing as saying it is trustless. Many people are confused about this part of decentralization where the network has to take time to reach consensus. Some people think that you can use some kind of technological trick to avoid this lag time and still have a completely trustless system. It is a tradeoff. Russ