From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C1D3825A for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:46:08 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-pd0-f171.google.com (mail-pd0-f171.google.com [209.85.192.171]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 67ADF1BB for ; Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:46:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pdco4 with SMTP id o4so63148536pdc.3 for ; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 11:46:08 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:from:subject:references:to:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=MEXp4O2hIOyN6knZeX35duEuM6dDvujPN1oZWepHEQU=; b=lMzCqsA77w1J7KvDuM6gAUzA/o6rra2Ho1yz7W3a1jnIoKt14/zGnWZiM7oXlSj/1B KHeefGXR461BJZT5b4WOUeyVF+0toIzDu3icygvFw8T3OrTrfOsXtot6NGta6XjYeHqc lq4UJ6TwgQ3ls3cf0snyKdtB97swggqXQjJ4qS/oIE2v7cGWypKsdUw1gCggwaBsok4X 0MABqrPU0fPTBnyZ1Yq5ZipXiXPWcyzYjtEYKN4SeHyxmZEI1b1i83Zq4T56TNDvH1Li jPh5pI7Mnc1f1+KwS5zQUbn5C/QpoOttQcTLVPnPiD1NpGU3jI5jYJhNEGbf8P8mIV0/ ZjPQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQnb1Eh40T/YZkbK8C5Qu87BhGD1Xg8MQD0jaGqQUi9QnO0zTVv7Z4yxrQgRG/PntWF2Am7S X-Received: by 10.70.41.130 with SMTP id f2mr37116416pdl.86.1439145968073; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 11:46:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.89] (99-8-65-117.lightspeed.davlca.sbcglobal.net. [99.8.65.117]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id ip7sm228413pbc.68.2015.08.09.11.46.05 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Aug 2015 11:46:06 -0700 (PDT) From: Tom Harding References: X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 To: Bitcoin Dev Message-ID: <55C79FF0.8040100@thinlink.com> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 11:46:08 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=windows-1252 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 09 Aug 2015 18:46:08 -0000 On 8/4/2015 4:27 AM, Pieter Wuille via bitcoin-dev wrote: > Don't turn Bitcoin into something uninteresting, please. Consider how Bob will receive money using the Lightning Network. Bob receives a payment by applying a contract to his local payment channel, increasing the amount payable to him when the channel is closed. There are two possible sources of funding for Bob's increased claim. They can appear alone, or in combination: Funding Source (1) A deposit from Bob's payment hub Bob can receive funds, if his payment hub has made a deposit to the channel. Another name for this is "credit". This credit has no default risk: Bob cannot just take payment hub's deposit. But neither can Bob receive money, unless payment hub has advanced it to the channel (or (2) below applies). Nothing requires the payment hub to do this. This is a 3rd-party dependency totally absent with plain old bitcoin. It will come with a fee and, in an important way, it is worse than the current banking system. If a bank will not even open an account for Bob today, why would a payment hub lock up hard bitcoin to allow Bob to be paid through a Poon-Dryja channel? Funding Source (2) Bob's previous spends If Bob has previously spent from the channel, decreasing his claim on its funds (which he could have deposited himself), that claim can be re-increased. To avoid needing credit (1), Bob has an incentive to consolidate spending and income in the same payment channel, just as with today's banks. This is at odds with the idea that Bob will have accounts with many payment hubs. It is an incentive for centralization. With Lightning Network, Bob will need a powerful middleman to send and receive money effectively. *That* is uninteresting to me.