From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8C58D847 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 01:52:21 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-pd0-f175.google.com (mail-pd0-f175.google.com [209.85.192.175]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BD23176 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 01:52:21 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pdrh1 with SMTP id h1so47422807pdr.0 for ; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 18:52:21 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:references:from:to:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding; bh=zXLFiRMiRbmkzMBSlfNwzaGPGJL20rCBfiW8B5WV4qw=; b=V7EAvLoFz/55k6sWDqsrfYobHSrV3/ot28GIjvQtxilMwO3fh8fO3LnyQrTqVZ9YlJ 1x+zr5tq4jHi7OQec3qBqrkvllR0rSjujzJZlsgkZWeQ5IwfFPdR+LbFbqo7Ga42wjoB anNfHIvhnMu+AVBBCgct7vWuHEYNsSJz0JNKbRiB1/VZZYl1qiZ4pVTELvVmiCMo7AAG 2d1uKf1Nbf2IePWblj0FkuQHXFYWn7YTOKIa02LhGlrHlTyX1frWwGGapiKrE1vMc2GY BfdAoz+oA8LIejUObWICFbNXw+TMH6d19lqw3tUEuc4scXRKb/SkcP+zWx/0C/bWPdFt Hy6g== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQlYU5o9UthNVWWa/o7OsMR1Uzsqb4/K9Uwp1qPcugmxbBX5fBER8usnmfk3XoX2uzJzxSxk X-Received: by 10.70.47.3 with SMTP id z3mr9954578pdm.120.1439171540908; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 18:52:20 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.89] (99-8-65-117.lightspeed.davlca.sbcglobal.net. [99.8.65.117]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id le8sm17774683pbc.24.2015.08.09.18.52.19 for (version=TLSv1.2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Aug 2015 18:52:19 -0700 (PDT) References: <55C79FF0.8040100@thinlink.com> From: Tom Harding X-Enigmail-Draft-Status: N1110 To: Bitcoin Dev Message-ID: <55C803D6.7070706@thinlink.com> Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 18:52:22 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:38.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/38.1.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 01:52:21 -0000 On 8/9/2015 2:45 PM, Hector Chu wrote: > Tom, my understanding is that the money that is debited from a payment > hub is simultaneously credited from either another payment hub or the > person making the payment, so that the net funds flow at a payment hub > always sums to zero. That describes the steady-state dynamics. I refer to the hub funding required to initiate and maintain the ability to receive payments. If Bob opens a channel at his hub, doesn't use it for spending, and Alice sends 1 BTC to the channel, her payment can only be applied if the hub has funded the channel with at least 1 BTC. Yes, the hub receives an offsetting payment (from Alice, ultimately) in another channel. But to make this work, it must subject 1 BTC to shared control with Bob and forfeit the use of that money for other purposes (opportunity cost) while the channel is open. The opportunity cost is likened to gold lease rates in the LN paper. I would be surprised if the rates charged to consumers for BTC credit aren't much closer to today's BTC borrowing rates. We'll see. Burying this cost in general fees might not work very well, because different Bobs may want different maximum payment amounts, and channels open for different lengths of time.