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[103.168.172.146]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 41be03b00d2f7-af281089d8esi291449a12.2.2025.03.08.14.14.18 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 08 Mar 2025 14:14:18 -0800 (PST) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of bitcoin-dev@lightco.in designates 103.168.172.146 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.146; Received: from phl-compute-09.internal (phl-compute-09.phl.internal [10.202.2.49]) by mailfout.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 8830B13826AA for ; Sat, 8 Mar 2025 17:14:17 -0500 (EST) Received: from phl-imap-04 ([10.202.2.82]) by phl-compute-09.internal (MEProxy); Sat, 08 Mar 2025 17:14:17 -0500 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgdduudegjeefucetufdoteggodetrf dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggv pdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucgoufhushhpvggtth ffohhmrghinhculdegledmnecujfgurhepofggfffhvffkjghfufgtgfesthejredtredt tdenucfhrhhomhepnfhighhhthcuoegsihhttghoihhnqdguvghvsehlihhghhhttghord hinheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepveeuhfekgeffudekgeffgeeiheefvefgfffgtdej jeduhfekudevheelgeeuteeunecuffhomhgrihhnpehgihhthhhusgdrtghomhdpuhhnlh hotghkihhnghdqughushhtqdhuthigohhsqdgrshdqthhrrghnshgrtghtihhonhdqfhgv vghsrdhmugdpshgrthhoshhhihhnohhtvggsohhokhdrtghomhdpghhoohhglhgvrdgtoh hmnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghmpehmrghilhhfrhhomhepsghi thgtohhinhdquggvvheslhhighhhthgtohdrihhnpdhnsggprhgtphhtthhopedupdhmoh guvgepshhmthhpohhuthdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttghoihhnuggvvhesghhoohhglhgv ghhrohhuphhsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ic4c14615:Fastmail Received: by mailuser.phl.internal (Postfix, from userid 501) id 4E28E2E60088; Sat, 8 Mar 2025 17:14:17 -0500 (EST) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface MIME-Version: 1.0 Date: Sat, 08 Mar 2025 17:13:56 -0500 From: Light To: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Message-Id: <5674c8ec-a38c-487d-9736-bf3b99178335@app.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: <62b454f8-56be-4eae-ba3e-57c53d493f3dn@googlegroups.com> References: <62b454f8-56be-4eae-ba3e-57c53d493f3dn@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Proposal: Unlocking Dust UTXOs as Miner Transaction Fees Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Original-Sender: bitcoin-dev@lightco.in X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@lightco.in header.s=fm3 header.b=Bj6XT3zO; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm1 header.b=jQtaD9qk; spf=pass (google.com: domain of bitcoin-dev@lightco.in designates 103.168.172.146 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bitcoin-dev@lightco.in Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) Hi Nighttime, Several questions come to mind: 1. Why fix the limit at 546 sats? Why not allow any UTXO to be spent this w= ay? 2. What about "dust" UTXOs owned by scripts rather than keys? e.g. multisig 3. The size of this OP_RETURN output could be a barrier, both technical and= economic: Technical: Based on the metadata contained in this output, this may be larg= er than the current 80-byte OP_RETURN standardness limit. Is that correct? = If so, does this imply a need to increase this standardness limit, or requi= re an assumption that the user will find their own way to circumvent this l= imit? e.g. using Libre Relay Economic: Depending on the size of this OP_RETURN output and the current ma= rket fee rate, the value of the dust may still be uneconomical for the mine= r to claim. For example, if the OP_RETURN output is 100 vB and the current = fee rate is 6 s/vB then a 546 sat dust output will not be economical for th= e miner to include in their block. 4. Given the above considerations, I wonder how this proposal is an improve= ment over the status quo at all. Does this method of spending a UTXO via OP= _RETURN actually save any onchain bytes relative to "traditional spending"?= And even if it does result in onchain byte savings in some or all cases, i= s it really worth all of the effort of a soft fork and wallet updates etc t= o allow them to become spendable this way if economic realities could make = them uneconomical to spend anyways should we permanently transition to a pa= radigm of sufficiently high fee rates? Regards, Light On Sat, Mar 8, 2025, at 1:23 PM, Nighttime Satoshi wrote: > Dear fellow Bitcoin developers, > > I'm excited to share a proposal addressing a long-standing Bitcoin=20 > challenge: economically unviable dust UTXOs. > As Bitcoin's value and transaction fees increase, more UTXOs become=20 > effectively unspendable because the cost to move them exceeds their=20 > value. This creates a growing dust horizon - small amounts of BTC=20 > permanently stranded from circulation, weakening fungibility and=20 > bloating the UTXO set. > > I'm proposing a solution that enables users to voluntarily designate=20 > their dust UTXOs as transaction fees through cryptographic=20 > authorization, allowing miners to claim them directly without requiring= =20 > traditional spending. This is a win-win-win solution for users=20 > (reclaiming otherwise stranded value), miners (additional fee income),=20 > and the network (reduced UTXO set size). > > Key Features: 1. *Entirely Voluntary* - Users must explicitly authorize= =20 > any dust UTXO transfer with cryptographic signatures proving ownership > 2. *Implementation as Soft Fork* - Backward-compatible with=20 > non-upgraded nodes > 3. *Simple Security Model* - Uses familiar signature verification=20 > without exposing private keys > 4. *Clearly Defined Dust Threshold* - Fixed at 546 satoshis, matching=20 > Bitcoin Core's existing dust limit > 5. *Race Condition Prevention* - Comprehensive safeguards against=20 > double-spend and miner race conditions > 6. *Minimal Consensus Impact* - Carefully designed to introduce=20 > minimal complexity to Bitcoin's validation logic > Economic Benefits: 1. *UTXO Set Cleanup* - Removing millions of dust=20 > UTXOs could significantly reduce the UTXO set size > 2. *Enhanced Fungibility* - Provides a pathway for stranded satoshis=20 > to rejoin economic circulation > 3. *Long-term Miner Incentive* - Creates an additional fee source as=20 > block rewards diminish > 4. *Complementary to Existing Solutions* - Works alongside batching,=20 > consolidation, and Lightning Network > Technical Implementation: > The proposal uses a special OP_RETURN output format in transactions to=20 > designate dust UTXOs for miner claiming: > > OP_RETURN > > Miners can claim these UTXOs in their coinbase transaction if and only=20 > if the corresponding designation transaction is included in the same=20 > block. > > Historical Context & Contributions: > It seems that previous discussions on dust UTXOs have considered many=20 > approaches, including forced reclamation. This proposal avoids those=20 > controversies by requiring explicit user authorization while still=20 > providing an economically rational path for dust cleanup. > > You can read the full proposal draft here:=20 > https://github.com/satoshinotebook/BIPs/blob/main/unlocking-dust-utxos-as= -transaction-fees.md > > I'd appreciate feedback on: > > 1. Technical feasibility of the soft fork implementation > 2. Security considerations and potential edge cases > 3. Economic incentive alignment > 4. User experience concerns for wallet implementations > Thank you for any feedback! I believe it offers a practical solution to= =20 > a growing challenge that will only become more significant as Bitcoin=20 > continues to mature and evolve. > > With respect, > > Nighttime Satoshi > > nighttimesatoshi@gmail.com > > https://satoshinotebook.com > > > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 > Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=20 > an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion visit=20 > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/62b454f8-56be-4eae-ba3e-57c5= 3d493f3dn%40googlegroups.com=20 > . --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 5674c8ec-a38c-487d-9736-bf3b99178335%40app.fastmail.com.