From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 276DD71 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:57:33 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-la0-f53.google.com (mail-la0-f53.google.com [209.85.215.53]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D43E47D for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:57:31 +0000 (UTC) Received: by lalv9 with SMTP id v9so5305164lal.0 for ; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 22:57:30 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=content-type:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=9wuA2eSPAmxuYo/MhOKbkvD7+x0hejMZBtxl3GlUx8U=; b=UbyB1LKbkUJapuKHEncJY0oWDkL0hgqv+x6q5kR80XDuYlfcwJzq2QxZtUEIM4cjAC 9TDzN5eQO1P2czzVak5Ca28NTU0mFJrdb8Ewga1ivMpmYTVq+xz7vQFGiiXJZydFxC+e t04myzGenK3r10hIIm2JDrIRLuzvTGp4EHB9nmjZNruJnue9ABdqZs8w2+e4Ft2Eg4g0 +C4XH5W5rrHm4twl2yNQTPcajG4Z+Ra9mlmTxF+HPy8B97LhgHg+jCUFGqogsM2CWm/r odMkG364TriFFNxzUPf+Oxe7z5Avc7GCnMbCwEwUTTGUofh9Rylcl/EiCfEdyo58Gt0U OrAg== X-Received: by 10.112.145.201 with SMTP id sw9mr18736032lbb.25.1439186249883; Sun, 09 Aug 2015 22:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.31] ([212.60.121.11]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id dj1sm312038lac.3.2015.08.09.22.57.28 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sun, 09 Aug 2015 22:57:29 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: "Rune K. Svendsen" X-Mailer: iPad Mail (12H143) In-Reply-To: <55C7D234.1040306@bitmarkets.net> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 07:57:30 +0200 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <567909F0-F686-4B38-A745-637423E12311@gmail.com> References: <55C7D234.1040306@bitmarkets.net> To: "info@bitmarkets.net" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: "bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Off-chain transactions and miner fees X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 05:57:33 -0000 Nodes in the Lightning network earn fees that wouldn't be there if it weren'= t for the Lightning network. The base Bitcoin layer can't handle the transac= tion throughout that Lightning can, so the Lightning fees were never availab= le to Bitcoin miners in the first place. What Lightning does is raise the value of a transaction on the block chain. I= magine you're a Lightning node, and in order to collect your fees, that you'= ve earned over the past month, you have to settle on the blockchain. If you'= ve earned, say, 0.5 BTC in fees, you can attach a huge 0.005 BTC fee to the B= itcoin settlement transaction. The miners earn a larger fee, and you make su= re your transaction gets into the blockchain quickly, and you can afford to p= ay this fee because you've made much more on the Lightning transactions you'= ve routed. /Rune > Den 10/08/2015 kl. 00.20 skrev info--- via bitcoin-dev : >=20 > Hello all, >=20 > one argument I often read on this mailing list is that it's essential to > reward miners with transaction fees at some point to secure the network. >=20 > Off-chain transactions, whether it's Lightning or something else, > potentially extract fees, which may otherwise be paid to miners, if the > transactions were actually on-chain. >=20 > In this context, wouldn't it be contradictory, maybe even harmful, to > aim for an environment, where some/many/most transactions are off-chain? >=20 > I have not yet seen this conflict addressed in the recent discussions. >=20 > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev