From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id C52FFBF8 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2016 20:54:20 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-pf0-f173.google.com (mail-pf0-f173.google.com [209.85.192.173]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3F137116 for ; Thu, 3 Mar 2016 20:54:20 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pf0-f173.google.com with SMTP id w128so21656736pfb.2 for ; Thu, 03 Mar 2016 12:54:20 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=voskuil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to:cc:subject :references:in-reply-to; bh=dWjaTS9GTrI5s9HhWQPhF2Rt9mgvNKov/9VYytzA4I8=; b=BiCh8TCa33kR7wZUO/u/osK3OnpKRQaQLTQ/F8Q/FoeEVonLH2gVDRUAtpQewLUH2Y XdvA1a76nSueO0NPY1X901OvP76Oy63+bsCZnNFGGukuJK7u9WAT07kIoBRSsIkK/7Mb guhwgJ/1cdQf5lLQjl4QlRWdFEGwbJqz6pHBiywx1hnMYINz1QD7Ci9bCepTQCw9bOlL pn7oI+8nVFH13pdyjTURPSlKb/dOSz36ByqnYglgtn/JqWjikiZDhcjGH63Uv6Nl2nJO 08/wMnGptBRFfI+kjoucKEsUFxTrg2gHrTFxJkFY6f3n1zxc8sTxFveNZkoMwWTTfELb d++A== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:message-id:date:from:user-agent:mime-version:to :cc:subject:references:in-reply-to; bh=dWjaTS9GTrI5s9HhWQPhF2Rt9mgvNKov/9VYytzA4I8=; b=Pt+5a4Y1AJprHwxGJ5TAfGM3fF2V5Eu9B2fFY8zQyNMd/4XiLsMHUXdGhcAR9vDJVf p4PdNsSjNjZlwWIjSe/6hKUPTQdLDPGeSULwa1ycoV+i0VL11Vc/KOEUObA9nYAT3XQN 1IbrUZRgR3297T9xqRVcC2qkyN3LLKorBATDOT1thoHCb4PGznlLmTHLhWmiWRCM8ZGb XrU+/HD15NYdY13CTtNUkUxOvshm3IJ7G4t8mu8ZIJcIItAxRWVPUlhjWJ8UlE7ek0He Vepd5qiRKx9PqKw1M7DGaNX8BkFfV8f2jwAMlsvG6QHX80s6Vz5TQIwq2Zkf8R2gJQUj r5/Q== X-Gm-Message-State: AD7BkJIuzOVck7aAbAgNzpt1DLqRmFnZDff/WOx6ujXU96TcE2xQYU1BoTaMaBF6QorifQ== X-Received: by 10.98.15.145 with SMTP id 17mr6557749pfp.19.1457038459793; Thu, 03 Mar 2016 12:54:19 -0800 (PST) Received: from ?IPv6:2601:600:9001:8060:6d45:92a3:b81f:95d7? ([2601:600:9001:8060:6d45:92a3:b81f:95d7]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id r87sm214681pfa.61.2016.03.03.12.54.18 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Thu, 03 Mar 2016 12:54:18 -0800 (PST) Message-ID: <56D8A480.6040604@voskuil.org> Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2016 12:54:24 -0800 From: Eric Voskuil User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:31.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/31.2.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 To: Peter Todd References: <201603021456.15820.luke@dashjr.org> <201603021542.29609.luke@dashjr.org> <56D71488.4080607@gmail.com> <00e101d174b5$f2659060$d730b120$@voskuil.org> <20160302230213.GA888@muck> In-Reply-To: <20160302230213.GA888@muck> Content-Type: multipart/signed; micalg=pgp-sha256; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; boundary="9IWvuxiwShosKoqIbk1wqMjT0aLP5xFk0" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.6 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 03 Mar 2016 21:01:37 +0000 Cc: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Hardfork to fix difficulty drop algorithm X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 03 Mar 2016 20:54:20 -0000 This is an OpenPGP/MIME signed message (RFC 4880 and 3156) --9IWvuxiwShosKoqIbk1wqMjT0aLP5xFk0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On 03/02/2016 03:02 PM, Peter Todd wrote: > On Wed, Mar 02, 2016 at 11:01:36AM -0800, Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev = wrote: >>> A 6 month investment with 3 months on the high subsidy and 3 months o= n low subsidy would not be made=E2=80=A6 >> >> Yes, this is the essential point. All capital investments are made bas= ed on expectations of future returns. To the extent that futures are perf= ectly knowable, they can be perfectly factored in. This is why inflation = in Bitcoin is not a tax, it=E2=80=99s a cost. These step functions are ma= de continuous by their predictability, removing that predictability will = make them -- unpredictable. >=20 > You know, I do agree with you. >=20 > But see, this is one of the reasons why we keep reminding people that > strictly speaking a hardfork *is* an altcoin, and the altcoin can chang= e > any rule currently in Bitcoin. >=20 > It'd be perfectly reasonable to create an altcoin with a 22-million-coi= n > limit and an inflation schedule that had smooth, rather than abrupt, > drops. It'd also be reasonable to make that altcoin start with the same= > UTXO set as Bitcoin as a means of initial coin distribution. >=20 > If miners choose to start mining that altcoin en-mass on the halving, > all the more power to them. It's our choice whether or not we buy those= > coins. We may choose not to, but if 95% of the hashing power decides to= > go mine something different we have to accept that under our current > chosen rules confirmations might take a long time. >=20 > Of course, personally I agree with Gregory Maxwell: this is all fairly > unlikely to happen, so the discussion is academic. But we'll see. >=20 I agree, this is a perfectly rational interpretation. I also agree that this particular instance is academic. But I see more to this than accepting what is possible. In the case of Federal Reserve Notes the gold obligation was abrogated. This was (at least) a contract default, implemented by force of arms. This contentious hard fork was clearly an attack. But in a system with no authority and in which nobody has formed a contractual obligation with anyone else, what would constitute an attack on the money? There is no difference between state attacks on (or collusion with) miners and miners acting on self interest. One answer is that nothing is an attack, it's up to the market to decide. But to the extent that there can be an attack on the money, the attempt to move the value of the coin to an altcoin (hard fork) is it. Though the choice of the term "attack" isn't essential. The importance of recognizing an attack is that it affords one the opportunity to defend against it. People holding "dollars" in 1933 were ill equipped to defend against a system level attack (monetary policy), in part because many did not recognize it as such, and in part because there was insufficient preparation by those who did. I see us building the tools and awareness necessary for defense. As you say, nobody has to buy into an altcoin forked from their coin. This much is simple to achieve. The more difficult problem is preserving the utility of the original coin. Clearly the purpose of a hard fork (as opposed to a new coin) is to transfer this value. We've all seen arguments for contentious hard fork deployment that explicitly depend on the fear of monetary loss to drag people to acceptance. While this may be the nature of the technology, it's important that we develop effective defense against it. Ultimately the only defense is individual validation. The collusion of banks (web wallets) with miners in attacking consensus is obvious. But even without active collusion, the surrender of validation leaves people just as defenseless as *being* unarmed while retaining a right to *become* armed. Even if every person mines at the same level, the system amounts to little more than majority rule if validation is not decentralized. There are people perfectly willing to exploit this weakness. e --9IWvuxiwShosKoqIbk1wqMjT0aLP5xFk0 Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name="signature.asc" Content-Description: OpenPGP digital signature Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="signature.asc" -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Version: GnuPG v1 iQEcBAEBCAAGBQJW2KSAAAoJEDzYwH8LXOFOWjcH/3Wq2YHtdoxlyvBVgaXCSmzd uMQu9wQn4Hv/3845WhgoLpHfFS/UZie/FzyB5IVcGOu/Qt0SrMxrj6aOMoX24WtL BPjo72Z56C9sOYV4tmS0anzQzw9D4CNgSYbCX8hX2IvCSELRBj2H9A4FIIrCzuoo YIMvlUmHVDy5qegALlLuBUojZBPz62Sbt/Gf2mmdx+sp8ku76YgxjZr3WCpBral2 wGrPRI0nuXYlU8HCO7DR0zhrd9UjiMbcb3yYH84CnEbtsRfebHXe4tVy0AmI183y I9E8O/ehBwBg78IHYMIEJcR86tNFoF4zXeuZcoeNdyQDuwEogWuj0E+xAr2AEyo= =sOUl -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --9IWvuxiwShosKoqIbk1wqMjT0aLP5xFk0--