From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org (smtp4.osuosl.org [140.211.166.137]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 89953C0032 for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:35:18 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 573F54054E for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:35:18 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org 573F54054E Authentication-Results: smtp4.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (1024-bit key) header.d=dashjr.org header.i=@dashjr.org header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=zinan header.b=vZCiJ4rR X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -4.401 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-4.401 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, NICE_REPLY_A=-0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_MED=-2.3, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp4.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp4.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id FLDybK3agqvb for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:35:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: delayed 319 seconds by postgrey-1.37 at util1.osuosl.org; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:35:16 UTC DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp4.osuosl.org DE1EE404CA Received: from zinan.dashjr.org (zinan.dashjr.org [IPv6:2001:470:88ff:2f::1]) by smtp4.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id DE1EE404CA for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:35:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: from [192.168.86.103] (99-39-46-195.lightspeed.dybhfl.sbcglobal.net [99.39.46.195]) (Authenticated sender: luke-jr) by zinan.dashjr.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 6128438B51CE for ; Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:29:53 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=dashjr.org; s=zinan; t=1698085795; bh=eJAaCAQPAmbaPDjQ6KuSErDbkKAz/2E80MIiqrCDWoo=; h=Date:Subject:To:References:From:In-Reply-To; b=vZCiJ4rRNFYRhmvjuoNiZJugWSnI2mxdCMrJ+X+ppSFF/Gde80hiN9Ge1z9Sb5VQM DoTp5zjo+DpWKqlDreYqzZU3nYDU6R+lCzZGn1VxQNroMTbViwxMLPVZVHdxH7AxF/ VGN4rsk/bF15+8gC9El5eP8k2lCv6CMAdU5wds6c= X-Hashcash: 1:23:231023:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org::pZgkFBavRwIRDSI3:mByF Message-ID: <5b641ddc-a30b-4dd7-2481-6d9cdb459359@dashjr.org> Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 14:29:50 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (X11; Linux x86_64; rv:102.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/102.15.1 To: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion References: Content-Language: en-US, en-GB From: Luke Dashjr In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Ordinals BIP PR X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 23 Oct 2023 18:35:18 -0000 Everything standardized between Bitcoin software is eligible to be and should be a BIP. I completely disagree with the claim that it's used for too many things. SLIPs exist for altcoin stuff. They shouldn't be used for things related to Bitcoin. BOLTs also shouldn't have ever been a separate process and should really just get merged into BIPs. But at this point, that will probably take quite a bit of effort, and obviously cooperation and active involvement from the Lightning development community. Maybe we need a 3rd BIP editor. Both Kalle and myself haven't had time to keep up. There are several PRs far more important than Ordinals nonsense that need to be triaged and probably merged. The issue with Ordinals is that it is actually unclear if it's eligible to be a BIP at all, since it is an attack on Bitcoin rather than a proposed improvement. There is a debate on the PR whether the "technically unsound, ..., or not in keeping with the Bitcoin philosophy." or "must represent a net improvement." clauses (BIP 2) are relevant. Those issues need to be resolved somehow before it could be merged. I have already commented to this effect and given my own opinions on the PR, and simply pretending the issues don't exist won't make them go away. (Nor is it worth the time of honest people to help Casey resolve this just so he can further try to harm/destroy Bitcoin.) Luke On 10/23/23 13:43, Andrew Poelstra via bitcoin-dev wrote: > On Mon, Oct 23, 2023 at 03:35:30PM +0000, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote: >> I have _not_ requested a BIP for OpenTimestamps, even though it is of much >> wider relevance to Bitcoin users than Ordinals by virtue of the fact that much >> of the commonly used software, including Bitcoin Core, is timestamped with OTS. >> I have not, because there is no need to document every single little protocol >> that happens to use Bitcoin with a BIP. >> >> Frankly we've been using BIPs for too many things. There is no avoiding the act >> that BIP assignment and acceptance is a mark of approval for a protocol. Thus >> we should limit BIP assignment to the minimum possible: _extremely_ widespread >> standards used by the _entire_ Bitcoin community, for the core mission of >> Bitcoin. >> > This would eliminate most wallet-related protocols e.g. BIP69 (sorted > keys), ypubs, zpubs, etc. I don't particularly like any of those but if > they can't be BIPs then they'd need to find another spec repository > where they wouldn't be lost and where updates could be tracked. > > The SLIP repo could serve this purpose, and I think e.g. SLIP39 is not a BIP > in part because of perceived friction and exclusivity of the BIPs repo. > But I'm not thrilled with this situation. > > In fact, I would prefer that OpenTimestamps were a BIP :). > >> It's notable that Lightning is _not_ standardized via the BIP process. I think >> that's a good thing. While it's arguably of wide enough use to warrent BIPs, >> Lightning doesn't need the approval of Core maintainers, and using their >> separate BOLT process makes that clear. >> > Well, LN is a bit special because it's so big that it can have its own > spec repo which is actively maintained and used. > > While it's technically true that BIPs need "approval of Core maintainers" > to be merged, the text of BIP2 suggests that this approval should be a > functionary role and be pretty-much automatic. And not require the BIP > be relevant or interesting or desireable to Core developers. > > > > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev