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[202.12.124.153]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ca18e2360f4ac-8648c087b3esi17144839f.4.2025.04.30.09.30.57 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 30 Apr 2025 09:30:57 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.153 as permitted sender) client-ip=202.12.124.153; Received: from phl-compute-01.internal (phl-compute-01.phl.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailfhigh.stl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 28ABE25401CF; Wed, 30 Apr 2025 12:30:57 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-02 ([10.202.2.163]) by phl-compute-01.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 30 Apr 2025 12:30:57 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeefvddrtddtgddvieejudekucetufdoteggodetrf dotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgfnhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggv pdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttdenucesvcftvggtihhpih gvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurheptggguffhjgffvefgkfhfvffosehtqhhmtdhh tdejnecuhfhrohhmpefujhhorhhsucfrrhhovhhoohhsthcuoehsjhhorhhssehsphhroh hvohhoshhtrdhnlheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepleehudefgeeuieetgffhhfeviedt vefhudekffeuvdejjeethffhtdelveeigeelnecuffhomhgrihhnpehsthgrtghkvgigtg hhrghnghgvrdgtohhmpdhgihhthhhusgdrtghomhenucevlhhushhtvghrufhiiigvpedt necurfgrrhgrmhepmhgrihhlfhhrohhmpehsjhhorhhssehsphhrohhvohhoshhtrdhnlh dpnhgspghrtghpthhtohepvddpmhhouggvpehsmhhtphhouhhtpdhrtghpthhtohepsghi thgtohhinhguvghvsehgohhoghhlvghgrhhouhhpshdrtghomhdprhgtphhtthhopegsnh grghgrvghvsehgmhgrihhlrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ie5e042df:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA; Wed, 30 Apr 2025 12:30:56 -0400 (EDT) Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.500.181.1.5\)) Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions From: Sjors Provoost In-Reply-To: Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2025 18:30:45 +0200 Cc: Nagaev Boris Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Message-Id: <613DAEA9-4911-4C32-8300-C6D8C87DD92E@sprovoost.nl> References: <03be4934-f0ff-4b58-880d-861d63a4f970@dashjr.org> <4DAF69CE-2AA6-4429-9F3C-91030C88A88B@sprovoost.nl> To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.500.181.1.5) X-Original-Sender: sjors@sprovoost.nl X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm1 header.b=sipgNghb; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=uRyzzECV; spf=pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 202.12.124.153 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) > Op 30 apr 2025, om 17:37 heeft Nagaev Boris het volge= nde geschreven: >=20 > On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 12:13=E2=80=AFPM Sjors Provoost wrote: >>> If that wasn't bad enough, exploiters get a 75% discount on transaction= fees. >>=20 >> At the time SegWit was proposed it was clear that the worst case block s= ize would increase to 4 MB. It took a few years for people to figure out ho= w to take advantage of that. Somewhere between 2015 and early 2017 would ha= ve been good time to object to the SegWit discount, but removing it now wou= ld be a hard fork. Fwiw I think the discount was a good idea. >=20 > Can you elaborate on why removing the SegWit discount now would be a > hard fork, please? This would be a tightening of consensus rules - > blocks that are valid under the current rules become invalid under new > rules, but not vice versa. >=20 > (I'm not proposing this, just a technical question.) Good point. It might indeed be a soft fork: https://bitcoin.stackexchange.c= om/a/121185/4948 It just has to be combined with a block size decrease. I think it would boil down to reducing MAX_BLOCK_WEIGHT from 4 million to 1= million, while at the same time reducing WITNESS_SCALE_FACTOR from 4 to 1. So it undoes the block size increase created by SegWit. From the perspectiv= e of pre-segwit nodes, they would see that typical blocks got smaller, beca= use they don't see the witness data. I also can't think of a vice-versa example. One could start by adjusting al= l the tests in Bitcoin Core to verify if there really isn't one. It would however be a confiscatory soft fork. E.g. if you have a pre-signed= 1.1 MB transaction, it won't fit in a block. Similarly, though less severe= , a 101 KB pre-signed transaction would no longer be standard, so you'd hav= e to find a miner or accelerator. Those transactions may sound silly, but soft fork proposals have been criti= cised for far less likely confiscatory surface. See e.g. the original Great= Consensus Cleanup thread from 2010. Note that a similar, albeit temporary, block size decrease has been propose= d before, see [0]. > The initial size limit upon activation depends on when it is activated: f= or example, if in 2018 January, it would begin at ~356k; or if in 2024 June= , it would begin at just over 1 MB. It kept the SegWit discount intact, though it added a byte based ceiling: > The weight of a block may not exceed double the size limit in bytes. It was never assigned a BIP number, so I'm not sure how serious this propos= al was. In any case, it got no traction, nor did any other block size decre= ase proposal. So even if there was support for removing the witness discount, since you c= an't do that without also decreasing the block size, I don't think this ave= nue is worth exploring. - Sjors [0] https://github.com/luke-jr/bips/blob/bip-blksize/bip-blksize.mediawiki --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 613DAEA9-4911-4C32-8300-C6D8C87DD92E%40sprovoost.nl.