From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 42CB4486 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:17:17 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-pa0-f51.google.com (mail-pa0-f51.google.com [209.85.220.51]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3CE3C131 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:17:16 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pa0-f51.google.com with SMTP id hl6so9699548pac.2 for ; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:17:16 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=netki.com; s=google; h=subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc:message-id:references :to; bh=525VUzGW0D40KmrEfqS82ojVE/eoqs/Awhx+NSKjJmU=; b=rPyk0hXxAG5BoraOganaGYpi4otRoqFdMM388wAuf8J1cDounEDHqHXebfY8V+NP6V JutcBizB3pq/vA7YmsfurGpElkOr5FLgiTRNQYq+tVpYA++gcKtEFKmdi4DupAqRnaHH IhD8JkX4DTdZC8WOYskEU45kpzoDHQk1H8pP4= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:mime-version:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=525VUzGW0D40KmrEfqS82ojVE/eoqs/Awhx+NSKjJmU=; b=YoIsulh/6aJlZR1+jJXR3wbBaDnlXAtjP41X3Kb6ltGh8vzUdTQZKZGxlFv5sxG0dd eRCZiAtEPrjDJK3AO5J0heudgp+zUOrEgeiV87hoism0zWP7Mdvbxq62b3y4p3mqeVyE h4o0d6sLpwsscCRuMVknmUdk24gnCnV0oqhM7kFUI7EiY+emAlXAm/NRmolPUdb9ClZh Ccvo8DB36bgHfnvyRv/fi/u4QkLpjClLB7NeOKhGVXIrbn3Y/iNy4trcChzdK6FXstM7 LjFOOaHTkbTo9VtNkSjgBelso3U2YIeqPv8oaR0wrT3+ooa42KWP3ai3z0agPZujk5sD Nr2Q== X-Gm-Message-State: ALyK8tLCQWXhc8BOTpJn3EFFqttrXl7QaNYEeOqPas8zNIo3NaeydjtWSZFtDg3zd8kkoSF1 X-Received: by 10.66.216.8 with SMTP id om8mr29999663pac.9.1466543835749; Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:17:15 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [10.0.1.202] (cpe-104-172-191-85.socal.res.rr.com. [104.172.191.85]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k22sm57584198pfj.16.2016.06.21.14.17.13 (version=TLSv1/SSLv3 cipher=OTHER); Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:17:14 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 9.3 \(3124\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_05FD1967-3DE4-4EFF-B628-195F068A9C7F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha256 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.6b2 From: Matt David In-Reply-To: Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 14:17:12 -0700 Message-Id: <66AA3F7D-05BF-4435-A3B3-4DF136B212DF@netki.com> References: To: James MacWhyte , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3124) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:20:56 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Even more proposed BIP extensions to BIP 0070 X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 21 Jun 2016 21:17:17 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_05FD1967-3DE4-4EFF-B628-195F068A9C7F Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B1748240-AE02-4171-BEAF-348185137C8F" --Apple-Mail=_B1748240-AE02-4171-BEAF-348185137C8F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Hey all, Interestingly enough, the original BIP75 idea started by trying to move = the Payment Protocol to use JSON, but because of all of the reasons = mentioned by Andreas, we ended up with protobuf. There is quite a bit of = language support on both desktop and mobile platforms so that's become = mostly a non-issue. Regarding the lack of optional client-supplied identification, BIP75 was = designed to solve this issue. It allows both parties in a transaction to = share identity information in an out-of-band fashion in order to keep = specific identity information off-chain. With regards to extensibility of PKI usage, both BIP70 and BIP75 provide = plenty of flexibility. Both the InvoiceRequest and PaymentRequest = contain the pki_type and pki_data fields to allow for the use of non = X.509 certificates. Currently, the only pki_types specified in both BIPs = are none or x509_sha256, but there isn't any specific limit on what can = be used as long as you can define a PKI type to be used, include a = public key and a signature that proves control of the keypair. Perhaps a = new BIP allowing for additional PKI types can be submitted, similar to = how RFCs extend usage of ciphers for TLS (ie., RFC 5932). Regarding subscriptions, and as proposed in the address book example use = case in BIP75, a wallet can be setup to automatically create BIP75 = transactions in order to retrieve a wallet address to pay for a = subscription on whatever frequency you would like to use. The service = provider can approve the first BIP75 transaction and then store the = public key for that client for future use. For subsequent subscription = payments, the service provider may automatically return wallet addresses = for each BIP75 transaction, understanding that the subsequent BIP75 = transactions are linked to the public key that was used for the first = transaction and therefore the subscription has been paid for. = Additionally, the BIP75 InvoiceRequest message contains a memo field = that can be used to include any additional subscription information = required by the subscription provider (and can be different for both = first and subsequent BIP75 transactions). This is a very interesting idea and I'd love to see how the community = can work together to make Bitcoin more user and mainstream friendly = while increasing security for all parties involved. All movement toward = this is really the goal at Netki. Best, Matt David Sr. Software Engineer Netki, Inc. matt@netki.com > On Jun 21, 2016, at 1:56 PM, James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev = wrote: >=20 > Thanks for starting this discussion, Erik. >=20 >=20 > Should this be a new BIP? I know netki's BIP75 is out there - but I = think it's too specific and too reliant on the domain name system. >=20 > This is not quite accurate. BIP75 is designed to be independent of any = name resolution system. You could use it with a static URL that you = share, for example, or even use it to implement a mesh-network payment = system over bluetooth. Netki's wallet names do use DNS, but that isn't = related to this discussion. >=20 > What BIP75 *does* do is provide a way for a client to get a new = payment address for every payment. I personally think it is better than = BIP47 for the uses you mentioned (subscriptions, etc). >=20 > I'm glad you brought up identity methods other than x509. At = breadwallet we are thinking about how to establish the most universal = system, and letting users identify themselves with any of a selection of = identity systems is ideal. I think the pki_data slot should be = constantly expanded to allow new identity types, but they should be = explained/standardized in the BIPs that add them and use universal = names. "netki://" wouldn't be appropriate, for example, if their method = is open sourced and possibly used by others--it should instead be given = a product name like "dnswallet://" or something more clever. >=20 > James >=20 >=20 > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev --Apple-Mail=_B1748240-AE02-4171-BEAF-348185137C8F Content-Type: multipart/related; type="text/html"; boundary="Apple-Mail=_D69942BC-2F7B-4F20-B573-7433CF2651DA" --Apple-Mail=_D69942BC-2F7B-4F20-B573-7433CF2651DA Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
Hey= all,

Interestingly enough, the original = BIP75 idea started by trying to move the Payment Protocol to use JSON, = but because of all of the reasons mentioned by Andreas, we ended up with = protobuf. There is quite a bit of language support on both desktop and = mobile platforms so that's become mostly a non-issue.

Regarding the lack of optional client-supplied = identification, BIP75 was designed to solve this issue. It allows both = parties in a transaction to share identity information in an out-of-band = fashion in order to keep specific identity information = off-chain.

With regards to extensibility of = PKI usage, both BIP70 and BIP75 provide plenty of flexibility. Both the = InvoiceRequest and PaymentRequest contain the pki_type and pki_data = fields to allow for the use of non X.509 certificates. Currently, the = only pki_types specified in both BIPs are none or x509_sha256, but there = isn't any specific limit on what can be used as long as you can define a = PKI type to be used, include a public key and a signature that proves = control of the keypair. Perhaps a new BIP allowing for additional PKI = types can be submitted, similar to how RFCs extend usage of ciphers for = TLS (ie., RFC 5932).

Regarding = subscriptions, and as proposed in the address book example use case in = BIP75, a wallet can be setup to automatically create BIP75 transactions = in order to retrieve a wallet address to pay for a subscription on = whatever frequency you would like to use. The service provider can = approve the first BIP75 transaction and then store the public key for = that client for future use. For subsequent subscription payments, the = service provider may automatically return wallet addresses for each = BIP75 transaction, understanding that the subsequent BIP75 transactions = are linked to the public key that was used for the first transaction and = therefore the subscription has been paid for. Additionally, the BIP75 = InvoiceRequest message contains a memo field that can be used to include = any additional subscription information required by the subscription = provider (and can be different for both first and subsequent BIP75 = transactions).

This is a very interesting idea = and I'd love to see how the community can work together to make Bitcoin = more user and mainstream friendly while increasing security for all = parties involved. All movement toward this is really the goal at = Netki.

Best,

Matt David
Sr. Software = Engineer
Netki, Inc.

matt@netki.com


On Jun 21, 2016, at 1:56 PM, James MacWhyte via bitcoin-dev = <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

Thanks for starting this discussion, Erik.


Should this be a new BIP?  I know = netki's BIP75 is out there - but I think it's too specific and too = reliant on the domain name system.
 
This is not quite accurate. BIP75 is = designed to be independent of any name resolution system. You could use = it with a static URL that you share, for example, or even use it to = implement a mesh-network payment system over bluetooth. Netki's wallet = names do use DNS, but that isn't related to this = discussion.

What = BIP75 *does* do is provide a way for a client to get a new payment = address for every payment. I personally think it is better than BIP47 = for the uses you mentioned (subscriptions, etc).

I'm glad = you brought up identity methods other than x509. At breadwallet we are = thinking about how to establish the most universal system, and letting = users identify themselves with any of a selection of identity systems is = ideal. I think the pki_data slot should be constantly expanded to allow = new identity types, but they should be explained/standardized in the = BIPs that add them and use universal names. "netki://" wouldn't be appropriate, = for example, if their method is open sourced and possibly used by = others--it should instead be given a product name like "dnswallet://" or = something more clever.

James


_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev = mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<= br class=3D"">

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