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Sun, 27 Apr 2025 09:47:38 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:4913:b0:6fd:4072:2c5b with SMTP id 00721157ae682-708541b993emr127799547b3.24.1745772458602; Sun, 27 Apr 2025 09:47:38 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:690c:6e93:b0:6ef:590d:3213 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-70854a7d3bams7b3; Sun, 27 Apr 2025 04:44:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a05:690c:4913:b0:6fd:4072:2c5b with SMTP id 00721157ae682-708541b993emr116040587b3.24.1745754256898; Sun, 27 Apr 2025 04:44:16 -0700 (PDT) Date: Sun, 27 Apr 2025 04:44:16 -0700 (PDT) From: Saint Wenhao To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Message-Id: <672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508d39cfd7dn@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: <5c13e130-aaa2-4866-be26-7498100e868b@murch.one> <7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29@murch.one> Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Unbreaking testnet4 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_86952_614198546.1745754256474" X-Original-Sender: saintwenhao@gmail.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) ------=_Part_86952_614198546.1745754256474 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_86953_511085932.1745754256474" ------=_Part_86953_511085932.1745754256474 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 consensus rules? Testnet coins were supposed to be worthless. But it failed in both testnet3= =20 and testnet4. In the meanwhile, signet was introduced, to make a more=20 stable test network. However, signing blocks was listed on wiki page=20 https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes as something, that "Require= =20 unanimous consent". And, as the history can tell us, people still wanted to= =20 test mining anyway, which is why testnet3 and testnet4 have much more=20 chainwork than signet (and when it comes to signet, sending=20 signed-but-unmined blocks to the miners was never implemented, so they had= =20 no chance to provide more hashing power). Another kind of change on the list, that would require consent, was=20 increasing the total number of coins beyond 21 million. But then, testing= =20 supply limits would be harder, and it could cause integer overflows in some= =20 cases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3, testnet4, and signet,= =20 there was never a problem of "not enough coins for miners", so that change= =20 probably wouldn't solve any problems (and seeing it in action would take=20 years anyway; testnet4 is still far from the first halving, and it is=20 traded anyway, so that change won't fix it). Then, we have the third option, which was not yet tried in test networks:= =20 demurrage. There are two main options: burning coins, or re-assigning them= =20 to someone else. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning would be=20 backward-incompatible, so it is probably easier to just implement burning,= =20 and just treat all coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_RETURN,= =20 by simply invalidating transactions spending them on consensus level. Also, when it comes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be possible= =20 to automatically remove things from the UTXO set, then it would make=20 Initial Blockchain Download easier, just because new nodes wouldn't need to= =20 synchronize everything, if old coins would be automatically invalidated. In= =20 practice, all nodes could be just running in pruned mode all the time, and= =20 everything beyond the pruning point, could be simply ignored on consensus= =20 level (which would also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And then, if= =20 we would keep for example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chain would= =20 never take more than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that's all we= =20 would need to send during Initial Blockchain Download to other nodes. poniedzia=C5=82ek, 31 marca 2025 o 22:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinsot napisa=C5= =82(a): > Good point on not having the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks=20 > sounds good to me. > > > > > On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch wrote: > > >=20 > >=20 > > Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later, 2026-01-0= 8 > > instead. > >=20 > > -Murch > >=20 > > On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote: > >=20 > > > Hey Antoine and everyone, > > >=20 > > > What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute difficulty > > > exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t serve its = intended > > > purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins easily = or > > > confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it would b= e > > > better to not have it at all. > > >=20 > > > On 2025-03-18 07:29, 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin Development Mailin= g > > > List wrote: > > >=20 > > > > I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset rule from > > > > testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01. > > >=20 > > > I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday in many p= laces to > > > avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-01 inste= ad? > > >=20 > > > Cheers, > > > Murch > >=20 > >=20 > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 > Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send= =20 > an email to bitcoindev+...@googlegroups.com. > > To view this discussion visit=20 > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506= a2410b29%40murch.one > . > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508d39cfd7dn%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_86953_511085932.1745754256474 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable What about introducing demurrage in testnet5 consensus rules?

Te= stnet coins were supposed to be worthless. But it failed in both testnet3 a= nd testnet4. In the meanwhile, signet was introduced, to make a more stable= test network. However, signing blocks was listed on wiki page https://en.b= itcoin.it/wiki/Prohibited_changes as something, that "Require unanimous con= sent". And, as the history can tell us, people still wanted to test mining = anyway, which is why testnet3 and testnet4 have much more chainwork than si= gnet (and when it comes to signet, sending signed-but-unmined blocks to the= miners was never implemented, so they had no chance to provide more hashin= g power).

Another kind of change on the list, that would require= consent, was increasing the total number of coins beyond 21 million. But t= hen, testing supply limits would be harder, and it could cause integer over= flows in some cases. But: in all test networks, including testnet3, testnet= 4, and signet, there was never a problem of "not enough coins for miners", = so that change probably wouldn't solve any problems (and seeing it in actio= n would take years anyway; testnet4 is still far from the first halving, an= d it is traded anyway, so that change won't fix it).

Then, we ha= ve the third option, which was not yet tried in test networks: demurrage. T= here are two main options: burning coins, or re-assigning them to someone e= lse. To make a soft-fork out of it, re-assigning would be backward-incompat= ible, so it is probably easier to just implement burning, and just treat al= l coins older than N blocks in the same way, as OP_RETURN, by simply invali= dating transactions spending them on consensus level.

Also, when= it comes to maintaining testnet nodes, if it would be possible to automati= cally remove things from the UTXO set, then it would make Initial Blockchai= n Download easier, just because new nodes wouldn't need to synchronize ever= ything, if old coins would be automatically invalidated. In practice, all n= odes could be just running in pruned mode all the time, and everything beyo= nd the pruning point, could be simply ignored on consensus level (which wou= ld also prevent the UTXO set from exploding). And then, if we would keep fo= r example the last 2,016 blocks, then the whole chain would never take more= than 2016 * 4 MB =3D 8.064 GB of storage, and that's all we would need to = send during Initial Blockchain Download to other nodes.

poniedzia=C5=82ek= , 31 marca 2025 o=C2=A022:50:27 UTC+2 Antoine Poinsot napisa=C5=82(a):
=
Good point on not= having the flag day on a holiday. One or two weeks sounds good to me.




On Monday, March 24th, 2025 at 8:25 AM, Murch <mu...@murch.one> w= rote:

>=20
>=20
> Errr, I wrote the same date as you, but I meant a week later, 2026= -01-08
> instead.
>=20
> -Murch
>=20
> On 2025-03-21 14:20, Murch wrote:
>=20
> > Hey Antoine and everyone,
> >=20
> > What you suggest makes sense to me. Since the 20-minute diffi= culty
> > exception is now exploited perpetually, it doesn=E2=80=99t se= rve its intended
> > purpose of allowing developers to mine themselves a few coins= easily or
> > confirm their own non-standard transactions. In that case, it= would be
> > better to not have it at all.
> >=20
> > On 2025-03-18 07:29, 'Antoine Poinsot' via Bitcoin De= velopment Mailing
> > List wrote:
> >=20
> > > I propose to fix this by removing the difficulty reset r= ule from
> > > testnet4 through a flag day hard fork on 2026-01-01.
> >=20
> > I would suggest to pick a date that=E2=80=99s not a holiday i= n many places to
> > avoid disrupting people=E2=80=99s holiday, how about 2026-01-= 01 instead?
> >=20
> > Cheers,
> > Murch
>=20
>=20
> --
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google= Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, = send an email to bitcoindev+...@= googlegroups.com.
> To view this discussion visit https://groups.google= .com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7c6800f0-7b77-4aca-a4f9-2506a2410b29%40murch.one.

--
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.
To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoind= ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoind= ev/672cb527-9005-46fc-be2c-4508d39cfd7dn%40googlegroups.com.
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