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Thu, 7 Jul 2022 13:59:01 -0400 (EDT) X-Mailer: MessagingEngine.com Webmail Interface User-Agent: Cyrus-JMAP/3.7.0-alpha0-719-gc39a70fa89-fm-20220629.002-gc39a70fa Mime-Version: 1.0 Message-Id: <68d39c5e-bd31-44e5-a5dc-e63d496ee780@www.fastmail.com> In-Reply-To: References: <0dc0e945-9e12-43ad-bd12-fcc0e18e4013@www.fastmail.com> Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2022 10:58:40 -0700 From: "Anton Shevchenko" To: "Pavol Rusnak" , "Alfred Hodler" , "Bram Cohen" Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=e7ea70b4334d48ae802f8114293322ec X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 07 Jul 2022 18:45:42 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 07 Jul 2022 17:59:04 -0000 --e7ea70b4334d48ae802f8114293322ec Content-Type: text/plain But this will require user to distinguish 12 words from error correcting words. Which is another hassle. On Thu, Jul 7, 2022, at 10:52 AM, Pavol Rusnak wrote: > There is. Just encode the index of permutation used to scramble the otherwise sorted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! = ~32 bits so 3 words should be enough. > > Repetitions make this more difficult, though. > > On Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev wrote: >> On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev wrote: >>> I made a python implementation for a different mnemonic encoding. The encoding requires user to remember words but not the order of those words. >>> The code is open (MIT license) at https://github.com/sancoder/noomnem >> >> Thanks Anton. There's an interesting mathematical question of whether it's possible to make a code like this which always uses the BIP-39 words for the same key as part of its encoding, basically adding a few words as error correction in case the order is lost or confused. If the BIP-39 contains a duplicate you can add an extra word. >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > -- > > Best Regards / S pozdravom, > > Pavol "stick" Rusnak > Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs --e7ea70b4334d48ae802f8114293322ec Content-Type: text/html Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
But this will require user to disti= nguish 12 words from error correcting words. Which is another hassle.

On Thu, Jul 7, 2022, at 10:52 AM, Pavol Rusnak wrote:
There is.= Just encode the index of permutation used to scramble the otherwise sor= ted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! =3D ~32 bits so 3 words sho= uld be enough. 

Repetitions make this more difficult, though. 

On Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev <<= a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@list= s.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev &l= t;bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
I made a python implementation for a diffe= rent mnemonic encoding. The encoding requires user to remember words but= not the order of those words.
The code is open (MIT lice= nse) at https://github.com/sancoder/noomnem

Thanks Anton. There's an interesting math= ematical question of whether it's possible to make a code like this whic= h always uses the BIP-39 words for the same key as part of its encoding,= basically adding a few words as error correction in case the order is l= ost or confused. If the BIP-39 contains a duplicate you can add an extra= word.
_______________________________________= ________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
--

Best Regards / S pozdravom,

=
Pavol "stick" Rusnak
Co-Founder, SatoshiLabs

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