From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org (smtp3.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::136]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id F065BC002D for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 21:48:50 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id CA1D960F6B for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 21:48:50 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org CA1D960F6B Authentication-Results: smtp3.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=voskuil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.i=@voskuil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20210112 header.b=WduB7HdI X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -1.896 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.896 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_NONE=0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp3.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp3.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id 37QoNre83evC for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 21:48:49 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp3.osuosl.org 8E4F860B74 Received: from mail-pg1-x52d.google.com (mail-pg1-x52d.google.com [IPv6:2607:f8b0:4864:20::52d]) by smtp3.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 8E4F860B74 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 21:48:49 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg1-x52d.google.com with SMTP id 23so11801922pgc.8 for ; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 14:48:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=voskuil-org.20210112.gappssmtp.com; s=20210112; h=content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version:subject:date:message-id :references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=Df7aJEqi75bfUO4PlHISok/hCWB0x26GG93FfjfcYbs=; b=WduB7HdIshxU9fTJI2tVsafn4bZVXWhgYU4F3LfCiSEd3xefHe1Fb9i1Oc841akfUc sfYfDF/0Jgeh7SZeo+VGkozEnEi+kbrWrJRqHV3ReLxN1XHtSIy3tQGYxmbs1YjDUoaM L7HowhhXqKs7a0w2rU41jUQIYDp+LAAnIxVplM5BU0I21HTqzXpaBuHJkeQaACRjKjVz oSTyj+apaIfglD6fhvAMDJyux5VevA0WUnnKB2IEMpLZxcdiZnJREyLYpU+EKIEIJPBs 8ej5sUAV/ZH1yjU0+FF/ea/RwNTtudDRmSH57DAc/FyRVX4tCA/rvaxAg0xYONiqr/WO s7xw== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:content-transfer-encoding:from:mime-version :subject:date:message-id:references:cc:in-reply-to:to; bh=Df7aJEqi75bfUO4PlHISok/hCWB0x26GG93FfjfcYbs=; b=Rh4c8+fpba6d1jLrvnuSJzZ604eitBnNHEFX7RtjAiBVa3IlmJgLtVn4LO4xaCkc1L aKp+VV1vncuf9UAS3O/fwzyWtlSikQAak9uNdrjG916aSatTzvqUVKqFQRejQ9s4xN3K oj0FaHa650gJbVyigKoIEtuXlzjWcTWIDxy5c4nLA3zZaOGRrT42zYGtj+iiUysJ4LSZ vr/8nVS3HkyxBsIjZ/HXIiBa+Qnfbl9wqACOzUVU2ERLsSitMCxbUe7rg6PyCAtgcSNQ JhXSfO0DgF4KVnARKRPACjJa6iR1VTB6uhpP2WIVMCQaWaDZg2rukuWlrv9wgMWO17fN tSHw== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora8Pr7sJ/J0dpz0AKO006hL+cDvdJraW08ya1Ihv55/0kSuEQrMA XefR37fMHasUO1UNWTOXk9yKqy2Tn73lKw== X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1t2vIsp/8TP75UHlk/zR9n4qZSZrYv+na+3IKwn80rTmtBMNgifKzTEMfDtJIcwVxWfaxnvBA== X-Received: by 2002:a05:6a00:a26:b0:528:9831:d935 with SMTP id p38-20020a056a000a2600b005289831d935mr29811567pfh.25.1658180928863; Mon, 18 Jul 2022 14:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Received: from smtpclient.apple ([2600:380:7042:731b:7c82:f0d0:f47a:123c]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id l18-20020a170902d35200b0016405375132sm10040440plk.25.2022.07.18.14.48.48 (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 18 Jul 2022 14:48:48 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-F8FB5EB5-191F-41D4-8367-9D46D1693F42 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit From: Eric Voskuil Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2022 14:48:46 -0700 Message-Id: <6A72F2DB-C07C-4953-B820-03613941D72E@voskuil.org> References: In-Reply-To: To: Erik Aronesty , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (19F77) Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Surprisingly, Tail Emission Is Not Inflationary X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 18 Jul 2022 21:48:51 -0000 --Apple-Mail-F8FB5EB5-191F-41D4-8367-9D46D1693F42 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > On Jul 18, 2022, at 14:14, Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev wrote: >=20 > =EF=BB=BF >>=20 >> subsidy to directly tie miner revenue to the total value of Bitcoin=20 >> makes it not exactly how we want to incentivise a service that keeps=20 >>=20 >=20 > again, this is meaningless. if the fees aren't enough to keep bitcoin s= ecure for large transactions, then large holders are incentivised to mine Yes, this is another way to pay the tx fee - you mine at cost sufficient to o= verpower the censor. You are spending the block reward in getting your txs c= onfirmed, and that=E2=80=99s your fee. But unless you are mining full blocks of only your own transactions, this im= plies that you are accepting these higher fees on censored txs from others. O= therwise you are simply mining at a loss, which we cannot use as a rational b= asis for security. And therefore this reduces to the simple fact that tx fees are what provides= censorship resistance, whether you mine your own or others=E2=80=99. e > that's it. >=20 > it's not complicated > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev --Apple-Mail-F8FB5EB5-191F-41D4-8367-9D46D1693F42 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On Jul 18, 2022, at 14:14,= Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>= wrote:

=EF=BB=BF

subsidy to directly tie miner revenue to the t= otal value of Bitcoin
makes it not exactly how we want to incentivise a service that keeps

again, this is meaningless.   if= the fees aren't enough to keep  bitcoin secure for large transact= ions, then large holders are incentivised to mine

Yes, this is another way to pay the tx fee - y= ou mine at cost sufficient to overpower the censor. You are spending the blo= ck reward in getting your txs confirmed, and that=E2=80=99s your fee.
<= div>
But unless you are mining full blocks of only your own tr= ansactions, this implies that you are accepting these higher fees on censore= d txs from others. Otherwise you are simply mining at a loss, which we canno= t use as a rational basis for security.

And therefo= re this reduces to the simple fact that tx fees are what provides censorship= resistance, whether you mine your own or others=E2=80=99.

e

that's it.

it's n= ot complicated
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https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev<= /span>
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