From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B4954F19 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2018 22:57:42 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-pg0-f54.google.com (mail-pg0-f54.google.com [74.125.83.54]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 46B8DE3 for ; Tue, 9 Jan 2018 22:57:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg0-f54.google.com with SMTP id z17so3123239pgc.4 for ; Tue, 09 Jan 2018 14:57:40 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=friedenbach-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date:in-reply-to:cc:to :references; bh=5+VGv/OY8MIPX4FrFHK0dbXWOpBMuwVJBtGzMxft2Nw=; b=Vqwex0m40NjZR6CsFgxUAxAykEL/2246yg5xGZ8TyMk2mT+8mIL/9jA2I59zPLXJ+n jHQRlgOuOLY45hxwdSrsZkpczBzZTXSZzbxuIlQH/zzq3l9BGNs1fzXt03uQN7ID3mxi Fa3/zNVYsnep5hVm+kr2Dg2qX/EloK0L+WiQPtKygdU24j8MER0maoJuF3G9QoC2TTwh DUEiwjEAcCsF1pUFont0QBOdHaIU7wKfQnTQOhAbkxD+Wz6i70FxSHnJO/5NhCnwaUY5 Utx5Uebtxh17G0aur7heAitfpP6wMdhyItXCfHApvlSOIBXGD1p3cCgHjnjYVv6LRoX6 4ZKA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:from:message-id:mime-version:subject:date :in-reply-to:cc:to:references; bh=5+VGv/OY8MIPX4FrFHK0dbXWOpBMuwVJBtGzMxft2Nw=; b=CSAiBYI/lXGFtIE3k8fNEclUhdv4zAgkcRO7VnNZYPZa0juFWNQtTnH9P1sdGGB52X kjaimhjP2pKRpWzAfySARUHw9J4QEkan3HIPV+uQS++4Nrfq4zCrqPcFHRXy0mESzk+i I0z/OMi+RaxgzMyTps0C8g0kfRWYVaN8J3XSVzsYmkzIRFZfrilWm4Drvf1S+QbqljMO MzLukwiWLPTn6aI8NzpLAT9MKUAlXdryYrhuJpel6NnUFx2HEntwot2i3cittDhRmH81 +Ks7I873Thdjp8rnBgkSXEY+/O5RNlqEPX/D20dfSi6xQpafy+GzhqOFNbbZib10xdIo UEgg== X-Gm-Message-State: AKGB3mKmHZmKfYI3P3r9RGN6EWO53KxO+YtyZzmTA+Z7Jhpp+Q1BOPvk I9QKrzHZDv0upRvwr0aZKkZJxA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBov2Vy9b9axZ3Jltf8s1E7GLnQv/PmTG2RjmvX6iAbf25FgXfMl+lCDup8zjx09bX3iUM7Sx9Q== X-Received: by 10.84.247.137 with SMTP id o9mr16885565pll.194.1515538659620; Tue, 09 Jan 2018 14:57:39 -0800 (PST) Received: from [10.71.8.119] ([218.45.193.1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id a15sm33690913pfe.91.2018.01.09.14.57.37 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 09 Jan 2018 14:57:38 -0800 (PST) From: Mark Friedenbach Message-Id: <6C568F3A-0CCD-41BE-B785-C58932F47C58@friedenbach.org> Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_08653CC5-99F8-42BF-A2E1-2126DC43D4C1" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Wed, 10 Jan 2018 07:57:34 +0900 In-Reply-To: To: Pieter Wuille References: <87608btgyd.fsf@rustcorp.com.au> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev , Russell O'Connor , Kalle Alm Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 117 Feedback X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 09 Jan 2018 22:57:43 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_08653CC5-99F8-42BF-A2E1-2126DC43D4C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii I havent the hubris to suggest that we know exactly what a templated = MAST *should* look like. It's not used in production anywhere. Even if = we did have the foresight, the tail-call semantics allow for other = constructions besides MAST and for the sake of the future we should = allow such permission-less innovation. The proper sequence of events = should be to enable features in a generic way, and then to create = specialized templates to save space for common constructions. Not the = other way around. We've been down the route of templating new features, and have made = mistakes. P2SH is a canonical example, which BIP 117 is fixing. P2SH = only provides 80 bits of security to a multi-party construction. Had we = been designing BIP 16 now we probably would have used double-SHA256 = instead of RIPEMD160. I will also assert that had we been using = single-use tail-call semantics *instead* of BIP 16, recognition of this = limitation would have resulted in us immediately defining a longer = '3...' address which used HASH256 instead, and we would have immediately = benefited from the fix. Instead we had to wait years until segwit gave = us the opportunity to fix it at the same time. To take another example, in some ideal sense we probably shouldn't even = be developing a programmable signature script framework. We should = instead template a generic lightning-derived layer-2 protocol and use = that for everything, including both payments (supporting cut-through) = and payment channels for smart contracts. This may not be the majority = technical opinion yet, but as someone working in this space I believe = that's where we are headed: a single layer-2 protocol that's generic = enough to use for all payment caching and smart contracts, while = achieving a full anonymity set for all contracts, as closures look = identical on the wire. Even if that's where things are headed, I hope it = is clear that we are not yet at such a stage to standardize what that = looks like. We still need many years of use of specialized lightning = protocols and work to be done to make them more generic and applicable = to other protocols. I believe the situation to be similar with MAST. Even if we have a = better idea of what the MAST constructions will look like, *nobody* uses = MAST in production yet, and there are bound to be implementation issues = in rolling it out, or unique variants we do not have the foresight to = see now. As a concrete example, BIP 116 has been modified since the = initial proposal to allow multiple branches to be proven at once from a = single Merkle tree root. To be honest, I don't know exactly how this = will be used. We were able to come up with a couple of examples to = justify inclusion of the feature, but I anticipate that someone down the = line will come up with an even more creative use. Maybe a payment = channel that uses a single tree to simultaneously commit to both the = policy script and a sequence number. Or something like that. If we = provide a templated, special-cased MAST now before it sees wide use then = we will be locking in the protocol that we anticipate people using = without having any production experience or ecosystem-wide review. = Frankly that strikes me as a poor engineering decision. Finally, even if we had perfect foresight into how a feature will be = used, which we don't, it is still the case that we would want to enable = permission-less innovation with the generic construct, even if using it = comes with a 40-byte or so witness hit. I make the argument for this in = the "intuitive explanation of MAST" email I sent to this list back in = September of last year. I will reproduce the argument below: = https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-September/015= 028.html The driving motivation for the tail-call and MBV proposals, and the = reason they are presented and considered together is to enable Merklized = Abstract Syntax Trees. However neither BIP actually defines a MAST = template, except as an example use case of the primitive features. This = is very much on purpose: it is the opinion of this author that new = bitcoin consensus features should follow the UNIX philosophy as = expressed by Peter Salus and Mike Gancarz and paraphrased by yours = truly: * Write features that do one thing and do it well. * Write features to work together. * Simple is beautiful. By using modularity and composition of powerful but simple tools like = MERKLEBRANCHVERIFY and single tail-call recursion to construct MAST we = enable a complex and desirable feature while minimizing changes to the = consensus code, review burden, and acquired technical debt. The reusability of the underlying primitives also means that they can be = combined with other modular features to support use cases other than = vanilla MAST, or reused in series to work around various limits that = might otherwise be imposed on a templated form of MAST. At the moment = the chief utility of these proposals is the straightforward MAST script = written above, but as primitives they do allow a few other use cases and = also combine well with features in the pipeline or on the drawing board. For example, in addition to MAST you can: 1. Use MERKLEBRANCHVERIFY alone to support honeypot bounties, as discussed in the BIP. 2. Use a series of MERKLEBRANCHVERIFY opcodes to verify a branch with split proofs to stay under script and witness push limitations. 3. Combine MERKLEBRANCHVERIFY with key aggregation to get Wuille-Maxwell tree signatures which support arbitrary signing policies using a single, aggregatable signature. 4. Combine tail-call execution semantics with CHECKSIGFROMSTACK to get delegation and signature-time commitment to subscript policy. 5. Combine MERKLEBRANCHVERIFY with a Merkle proof prefix check opcode and Lamport signature support to get reusable Lamport keys. I believe these benefits and possible future expansions to be strong = arguments in favor of extending bitcoin in the form of small, modular, = incremental, and reusable changes that can be combined and used even in = ways unforeseen even by their creators, creating a platform for = unrestricted innovation. The alternative approach of rigid templates achieves the stated goals, = perhaps even with slightly better encoding efficiency, but at the cost = of requiring workaround for each future innovation. P2SH is just such an = example -- we couldn't even upgrade to 128-bit security without = designing an entirely different implementation because of the = limitations of template pattern matching. > On Jan 9, 2018, at 11:21 PM, Pieter Wuille = wrote: >=20 > On Jan 9, 2018 13:41, "Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev" = > wrote: > The use of the alt stack is a hack for segwit script version 0 which = has the clean stack rule. Anticipated future improvements here are to = switch to a witness script version, and a new segwit output version = which supports native MAST to save an additional 40 or so witness bytes. = Either approach would allow getting rid of the alt stack hack. They are = not part of the proposal now because it is better to do things = incrementally, and because we anticipate usage of MAST to better inform = these less generic changes. >=20 > If the goal is to introduce a native MAST output type later, what is = gained by first having the tailcall semantics? >=20 > As far as I can see, this proposal does not have any benefits over = Johnson Lau's MAST idea [1]: > * It is more compact, already giving us the space savings a native = MAST version of the tail call semantics would bring. > * It does not need to work around limitations of push size limits or = cleanstack rules. > * The implementation (of code I've seen) is easier to reason about, as = it's just another case in VerifyScript (which you'd need for a native = MAST output later too) without introducing jumps or loops inside = EvalScript. > * It can express the same, as even though the MBV opcode supports = proving multiple elements simultaneously, I don't see a way to use that = in the tail call. Every scenario that consists of some logic before = deciding what the tail call is going to be can be rewritten to have that = logic inside each of the branches, I believe. > * It does not interfere with static analysis (see further). > * Tail call semantics may be easier to extend in the future to enable = semantics that are not compactly representable in either proposal right = now, by allowing a single top-level script may invoke multiple = subscripts, or recursion. However, those sound even riskier and harder = to analyse to me, and I don't think there is sufficient evidence they're = needed. >=20 > Native MAST outputs would need a new witness script version, which = your current proposal does indeed not need. However, I believe a new = script version will be desirable for other reasons regardless (returning = invalid opcodes to the pool of NOPs available for softforks, for = example). >=20 > I will make a strong assertion: static analyzing the number of opcodes = and sigops gets us absolutely nothing. It is cargo cult safety = engineering. No need to perpetuate it when it is now in the way. >=20 > I'm not sure I agree here. While I'd like to see the separate = execution limits go away, removing them entirely and complicating future = ability to introduce unified costing towards weight of execution cost = seems the wrong way to go. >=20 > My reasoning is this: perhaps you can currently make an argument that = the current weight limit is sufficient in preventing overly expensive = block validation costs, due to a minimal ratio between script sizes and = their execution cost. But such an argument needs to rely on assumptions = about sighash caching and low per-opcode CPU time, which may change in = the future. In my view, tail call semantics gratuitously remove or = complicate the ability to reason about the executed code. >=20 > One suggestion to reduce the impact of this is limiting the per-script = execution to something proportional to the script size. However, I don't = think that addresses all potential concerns about static analysis (for = example, it doesn't easily let you prove all possible execution paths to = a participant in a smart contract). >=20 > Another idea that has been suggested on this list is to mark pushes of = potentially executable code on the stack/witness explicitly. This would = retain all ability to analyse, while still leaving the flexibility of = future extensions to tail call execution. If tail call semantics are = adopted, I strongly prefer an approach like that to blindly throwing out = all limits and analysis. >=20 > [1] https://github.com/jl2012/bips/blob/mast/bip-mast.mediawiki = >=20 > Cheers, >=20 > --=20 > Pieter >=20 --Apple-Mail=_08653CC5-99F8-42BF-A2E1-2126DC43D4C1 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=us-ascii
I havent the hubris to suggest that we know exactly what a = templated MAST *should* look like. It's not used in production anywhere. = Even if we did have the foresight, the tail-call semantics allow for = other constructions besides MAST and for the sake of the future we = should allow such permission-less innovation. The proper sequence of = events should be to enable features in a generic way, and then to create = specialized templates to save space for common constructions. Not the = other way around.

We've been down the route of templating new features, and = have made mistakes. P2SH is a canonical example, which BIP 117 is = fixing. P2SH only provides 80 bits of security to a multi-party = construction. Had we been designing BIP 16 now we probably would have = used double-SHA256 instead of RIPEMD160. I will also assert that had we = been using single-use tail-call semantics *instead* of BIP 16, = recognition of this limitation would have resulted in us immediately = defining a longer '3...' address which used HASH256 instead, and we = would have immediately benefited from the fix. Instead we had to wait = years until segwit gave us the opportunity to fix it at the same = time.

To take = another example, in some ideal sense we probably shouldn't even be = developing a programmable signature script framework. We should instead = template a generic lightning-derived layer-2 protocol and use that for = everything, including both payments (supporting cut-through) and payment = channels for smart contracts. This may not be the majority technical = opinion yet, but as someone working in this space I believe that's where = we are headed: a single layer-2 protocol that's generic enough to use = for all payment caching and smart contracts, while achieving a full = anonymity set for all contracts, as closures look identical on the wire. = Even if that's where things are headed, I hope it is clear that we are = not yet at such a stage to standardize what that looks like. We still = need many years of use of specialized lightning protocols and work to be = done to make them more generic and applicable to other = protocols.

I = believe the situation to be similar with MAST. Even if we have a better = idea of what the MAST constructions will look like, *nobody* uses MAST = in production yet, and there are bound to be implementation issues in = rolling it out, or unique variants we do not have the foresight to see = now. As a concrete example, BIP 116 has been modified since the initial = proposal to allow multiple branches to be proven at once from a single = Merkle tree root. To be honest, I don't know exactly how this will be = used. We were able to come up with a couple of examples to justify = inclusion of the feature, but I anticipate that someone down the line = will come up with an even more creative use. Maybe a payment channel = that uses a single tree to simultaneously commit to both the policy = script and a sequence number. Or something like that. If we provide a = templated, special-cased MAST now before it sees wide use then we will = be locking in the protocol that we anticipate people using without = having any production experience or ecosystem-wide review. Frankly that = strikes me as a poor engineering decision.

Finally, even if we had perfect = foresight into how a feature will be used, which we don't, it is still = the case that we would want to enable permission-less innovation with = the generic construct, even if using it comes with a 40-byte or so = witness hit. I make the argument for this in the "intuitive explanation = of MAST" email I sent to this list back in September of last year. I = will reproduce the argument below:

https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2017-Se= ptember/015028.html

The driving motivation for the tail-call and MBV proposals, = and the reason they are presented and considered together is to enable = Merklized Abstract Syntax Trees. However neither BIP actually defines a = MAST template, except as an example use case of the primitive features. = This is very much on purpose: it is the opinion of this author that new = bitcoin consensus features should follow the UNIX philosophy as = expressed by Peter Salus and Mike Gancarz and paraphrased by yours = truly:

  = * Write features that do one thing and do it well.
  * Write features to work together.
  * Simple is beautiful.

By using modularity and composition of = powerful but simple tools like MERKLEBRANCHVERIFY and single tail-call = recursion to construct MAST we enable a complex and desirable feature = while minimizing changes to the consensus code, review burden, and = acquired technical debt.

The reusability of the underlying primitives also means that = they can be combined with other modular features to support use cases = other than vanilla MAST, or reused in series to work around various = limits that might otherwise be imposed on a templated form of MAST. At = the moment the chief utility of these proposals is the straightforward = MAST script written above, but as primitives they do allow a few other = use cases and also combine well with features in the pipeline or = on
the drawing board. For example, in addition to = MAST you can:

1.= Use MERKLEBRANCHVERIFY alone to support honeypot bounties, as
   discussed in the BIP.

2. Use a series of MERKLEBRANCHVERIFY = opcodes to verify a branch with
   split = proofs to stay under script and witness push limitations.

3. Combine = MERKLEBRANCHVERIFY with key aggregation to get
 =  Wuille-Maxwell tree signatures which support arbitrary = signing
   policies using a single, = aggregatable signature.

4. Combine tail-call execution semantics with = CHECKSIGFROMSTACK to get
   delegation = and signature-time commitment to subscript policy.

5. Combine = MERKLEBRANCHVERIFY with a Merkle proof prefix check opcode
   and Lamport signature support to get reusable = Lamport keys.

I = believe these benefits and possible future expansions to be strong = arguments in favor of extending bitcoin in the form of small, modular, = incremental, and reusable changes that can be combined and used even in = ways unforeseen even by their creators, creating a platform for = unrestricted innovation.

The alternative approach of rigid templates achieves the = stated goals, perhaps even with slightly better encoding efficiency, but = at the cost of requiring workaround for each future innovation. P2SH is = just such an example -- we couldn't even upgrade to 128-bit security = without designing an entirely different implementation because of the = limitations of template pattern matching.


On Jan 9, 2018, at 11:21 PM, Pieter Wuille = <pieter.wuille@gmail.com> wrote:

On Jan 9, 2018 13:41, "Mark Friedenbach via = bitcoin-dev" <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
The use of the alt stack is a hack for segwit = script version 0 which has the clean stack rule. Anticipated future = improvements here are to switch to a witness script version, and a new = segwit output version which supports native MAST to save an additional = 40 or so witness bytes. Either approach would allow getting rid of the = alt stack hack. They are not part of the proposal now because it is = better to do things incrementally, and because we anticipate usage of = MAST to better inform these less generic changes.
If the goal is to = introduce a native MAST output type later, what is gained by first = having the tailcall semantics?

As far as I can see, this = proposal does not have any benefits over Johnson Lau's MAST idea = [1]:
* It is more compact, already = giving us the space savings a native MAST version of the tail call = semantics would bring.
* It does not = need to work around limitations of push size limits or cleanstack = rules.
* The implementation (of code = I've seen) is easier to reason about, as it's just another case in = VerifyScript (which you'd need for a native MAST output later too) = without introducing jumps or loops inside EvalScript.
* It can express the same, as even though the = MBV opcode supports proving multiple elements simultaneously, I don't = see a way to use that in the tail call. Every scenario that consists of = some logic before deciding what the tail call is going to be can be = rewritten to have that logic inside each of the branches, I = believe.
* It does not interfere with = static analysis (see further).
* Tail = call semantics may be easier to extend in the future to enable semantics = that are not compactly representable in either proposal right now, by = allowing a single top-level script may invoke multiple subscripts, or = recursion. However, those sound even riskier and harder to analyse to = me, and I don't think there is sufficient evidence they're = needed.

Native MAST outputs would need a new witness = script version, which your current proposal does indeed not need. = However, I believe a new script version will be desirable for other = reasons regardless (returning invalid opcodes to the pool of NOPs = available for softforks, for example).

I will make a strong assertion: static analyzing the number of opcodes = and sigops gets us absolutely nothing. It is cargo cult safety = engineering. No need to perpetuate it when it is now in the way.
I'm not sure I agree = here. While I'd like to see the separate execution limits go away, = removing them entirely and complicating future ability to introduce = unified costing towards weight of execution cost seems the wrong way to = go.

My reasoning is this: perhaps you can currently = make an argument that the current weight limit is sufficient in = preventing overly expensive block validation costs, due to a minimal = ratio between script sizes and their execution cost. But such an = argument needs to rely on assumptions about sighash caching and low = per-opcode CPU time, which may change in the future. In my view, tail = call semantics gratuitously remove or complicate the ability to reason = about the executed code.

One suggestion to reduce = the impact of this is limiting the per-script execution to something = proportional to the script size. However, I don't think that addresses = all potential concerns about static analysis (for example, it doesn't = easily let you prove all possible execution paths to a participant in a = smart contract).

Another idea that has been = suggested on this list is to mark pushes of potentially executable code = on the stack/witness explicitly. This would retain all ability to = analyse, while still leaving the flexibility of future extensions to = tail call execution. If tail call semantics are adopted, I strongly = prefer an approach like that to blindly throwing out all limits and = analysis.

  [1] https://github.com/jl2012/bips/blob/mast/bip-mast.mediawiki=

Cheers,

-- 
Pieter


= --Apple-Mail=_08653CC5-99F8-42BF-A2E1-2126DC43D4C1--