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[103.168.172.156]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id ca18e2360f4ac-86a234ed639si46168639f.0.2025.05.21.00.42.01 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Wed, 21 May 2025 00:42:01 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) client-ip=103.168.172.156; Received: from phl-compute-03.internal (phl-compute-03.phl.internal [10.202.2.43]) by mailfhigh.phl.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id BE9011140133 for ; Wed, 21 May 2025 03:42:00 -0400 (EDT) Received: from phl-mailfrontend-02 ([10.202.2.163]) by phl-compute-03.internal (MEProxy); Wed, 21 May 2025 03:42:00 -0400 X-ME-Sender: X-ME-Received: X-ME-Proxy-Cause: gggruggvucftvghtrhhoucdtuddrgeeffedrtddtgddvhedtucdltddurdegfedvrddttd dmucetufdoteggodetrfdotffvucfrrhhofhhilhgvmecuhfgrshhtofgrihhlpdggtfgf nhhsuhgsshgtrhhisggvpdfurfetoffkrfgpnffqhgenuceurghilhhouhhtmecufedttd enucesvcftvggtihhpihgvnhhtshculddquddttddmnecujfgurhephfgtggfuffhfvfgj kffosegrtdhmrehhtdejnecuhfhrohhmpefujhhorhhsucfrrhhovhhoohhsthcuoehsjh horhhssehsphhrohhvohhoshhtrdhnlheqnecuggftrfgrthhtvghrnhepgfffkefhhfej tedvvedvtddvfeehtdeftdfggefggfekvedugeeujeejtddvgefgnecuffhomhgrihhnpe hmvghmphhoohhlrdhsphgrtggvnecuvehluhhsthgvrhfuihiivgeptdenucfrrghrrghm pehmrghilhhfrhhomhepshhjohhrshesshhprhhovhhoohhsthdrnhhlpdhnsggprhgtph htthhopedupdhmohguvgepshhmthhpohhuthdprhgtphhtthhopegsihhttghoihhnuggv vhesghhoohhglhgvghhrohhuphhsrdgtohhm X-ME-Proxy: Feedback-ID: ie5e042df:Fastmail Received: by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA for ; Wed, 21 May 2025 03:41:59 -0400 (EDT) From: Sjors Provoost Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_14C4EEC9-7072-4C1A-9B8E-8C09CB7A4B91" Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 16.0 \(3826.600.51.1.1\)) Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position Date: Wed, 21 May 2025 09:41:48 +0200 References: <7Q6uglccxrI_LPvP2bKeTwFcBAKJ5u8u6NHtDl-dNev_kplv2lfh46r-z2iflmtnnsa8YWgn1A2M8S0jLORI2GxwNQ7qmfyM2jqQiB6JTiw=@protonmail.com> To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List In-Reply-To: Message-Id: <7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547@sprovoost.nl> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3826.600.51.1.1) X-Original-Sender: sjors@sprovoost.nl X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@sprovoost.nl header.s=fm1 header.b=meV5ikyw; dkim=pass header.i=@messagingengine.com header.s=fm3 header.b=vdZkKrE7; spf=pass (google.com: domain of sjors@sprovoost.nl designates 103.168.172.156 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=sjors@sprovoost.nl; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=sprovoost.nl Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --Apple-Mail=_14C4EEC9-7072-4C1A-9B8E-8C09CB7A4B91 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Op 21 mei 2025, om 04:10 heeft Bob Burnett het volgende geschreven: [..] > =20 > That said, I suggest being very careful about projecting the current beha= vior of major miners as the norm or representative of the future. We are e= xtremely early in the development of the mining industry and there is a hig= h likelihood that over the next few years that there will a dramatic change= in the list of major miners =E2=80=93 and there very well may be changes i= n the philosophies and priorities of these miners as well.=20 I don't know what your claim of "likely" is based on, but it's certainly po= ssible. However, we have to design the protocol for the worst case behaviou= r. > Assuming that =E2=80=9Cmajor miners=E2=80=9D was meant to mean a group th= at largely is comprised of pubcos, none of the major players in the mining = industry have been doing it for long - with most going public very recently= (=E2=80=9922 and =E2=80=9923). =20 Here's a non-standard OP_RETURN mined by Eligius, not a pubco, in 2013: https://mempool.space/nl/tx/d29c9c0e8e4d2a9790922af73f0b8d51f0bd4bb19940d9c= f910ead8fbe85bc9b One example is just an anecdote of course, perhaps you could present data t= hat shows older industry players hardly mine non-standard transactions. > Finally, I don=E2=80=99t see any compelling reason for a change in OP_RET= URN policy or configurability. I speak to a lot of other miners as well an= d I don=E2=80=99t know of one a single one that feels any change is benefic= ial to them now. =20 It's not beneficial to large miners. They benefit from centralisation. It's= good for them to offer paid services that bypass standardness. - Sjors --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547%40sprovoost.nl. --Apple-Mail=_14C4EEC9-7072-4C1A-9B8E-8C09CB7A4B91 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8"

Op 21 mei 2025, om 04:10 heeft Bob Burnett <bob.burnet= t@barefootmining.com> het volgende geschreven:
[..]
 
That said= , I suggest being very careful about projecting the current behavior of maj= or miners as the norm or representative of the future.  We are extreme= ly early in the development of the mining industry and there is a high like= lihood that over the next few years that there will a dramatic change in th= e list of major miners =E2=80=93 and there very well may be changes in the = philosophies and priorities of these miners as well. 

I don't know what your claim of "l= ikely" is based on, but it's certainly possible. However, we have to design= the protocol for the worst case behaviour.

Assuming that =E2=80=9Cmajor miners=E2=80=9D wa= s meant to mean a group that largely is comprised of pubcos, none of the ma= jor players in the mining industry have been doing it for long - with most = going public very recently (=E2=80=9922 and =E2=80=9923).  

Here's a non-standard OP= _RETURN mined by Eligius, not a pubco, in 2013:

One example is = just an anecdote of course, perhaps you could present data that shows older= industry players hardly mine non-standard transactions.
Finally= , I don=E2=80=99t see any compelling reason for a change in OP_RETURN polic= y or configurability.  I speak to a lot of other miners as well and I = don=E2=80=99t know of one a single one that feels any change is beneficial = to them now.   

It's not beneficial to large miners. They benefit from centralisati= on. It's good for them to offer paid services that bypass standardness.

- Sjors

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