From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Delivery-date: Wed, 03 Apr 2024 11:37:50 -0700 Received: from mail-yb1-f188.google.com ([209.85.219.188]) by mail.fairlystable.org with esmtps (TLS1.3) tls TLS_ECDHE_RSA_WITH_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 (Exim 4.94.2) (envelope-from ) id 1rs5Ub-0004Z7-Go for bitcoindev@gnusha.org; Wed, 03 Apr 2024 11:37:50 -0700 Received: by mail-yb1-f188.google.com with SMTP id 3f1490d57ef6-ddaf2f115f2sf273464276.3 for ; Wed, 03 Apr 2024 11:37:49 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=googlegroups.com; s=20230601; t=1712169463; x=1712774263; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:sender:from :to:cc:subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=dsrjnDI5BZAWz6Cp3kcvpnqWB5m2spcY1GxXhKUxzXQ=; b=w729J6+xG5NDxvDp3HlU3o/Z/FucRimPmqaqMRRQwXDSdp9MGXJtDEpmHPAYIUCk6t GdjKtKuHs+wsuliOOU1Ww87nG9varfo+ncpqrWafU1XxyD9Q7r6pS+TBm2+oW8ywCZyx ios1yaC+FEqcpiy4mnI+3W8QEE92/K+aujq5OB6OlhpkI3LLKHCsqFgQzCaD5n5KCFf1 dd95pDGgCyH6vQo4dAWjgRwD1VsGNtMldITJi7ChdFawH8Cw6u1ZCOIZ3rElEhfFDTVA i9h9Zfr5AKUY9mS/+8fDr5crYIeS+06BK4ap0HQzaOMrn2MII+2rIOAredgYPSsqyP/j aLCQ== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=emsit.sk; s=google; t=1712169463; x=1712774263; darn=gnusha.org; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:from:to:cc :subject:date:message-id:reply-to; bh=dsrjnDI5BZAWz6Cp3kcvpnqWB5m2spcY1GxXhKUxzXQ=; b=LAabP6kTEJxqH1sfYFL+twLId5iB4230uqrGM5VmzfDNKob0uesVlLn5QDf+5zNXy1 TsE9PalLNQ5pLhHWYdaUBLIXPwftHvU4CcWrvKPvDribP0REqbA/L5B1YKC2hgmo282p DTvTjvuCJdZL5TYq67N6iJu0jlU6XyP+K1MtXCE6guRxY7UYDyYuxfDwSKFWq5iVK10M cBGJV8rZ0fmRH3Rw09nChKkvw/VThoACr0z2w91jc6iaoLfnohMpJ1LMEWdbhrLaEfeG f0uDvHlcwAPw79W4PXIXq+uUjXzLHnr3aO4VTqejaxuR+RLxviiQ5d40Zdki1TpOjXwP GtjQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20230601; t=1712169463; x=1712774263; h=list-unsubscribe:list-subscribe:list-archive:list-help:list-post :list-id:mailing-list:precedence:x-original-sender:mime-version :subject:references:in-reply-to:message-id:to:from:date:x-beenthere :x-gm-message-state:sender:from:to:cc:subject:date:message-id :reply-to; bh=dsrjnDI5BZAWz6Cp3kcvpnqWB5m2spcY1GxXhKUxzXQ=; b=D/A6Prdn+A+l4kB7eEGtxCM+RUeEh0E8wKwnW1rvhF9Tu1PZW1SK1VYXhB19eVCCgi hSquRltR+BtuxJ4bk1H41oR5zp6DWHKX4rbpbNRgo0+rl5K5iEIq2C8BEieTaGTYtnKo F540tiKEsj5pYhJ92oZTMsXBlaJb2JsGNA71GOEeIT3L4XuJtgtxfooc/RvtpA/SyGPs 9XL6uqyzqw8CYMn6WyGDqDqaxkQa1qrcxYZVdZPwSsZl2/3WdTESWaRlN5ziNiUZliXI YgsLM3+e5unUHtAcPc6hpQeyGZz9IVXWBl6GGhng6X/tC85XiTEtrfGUCGv7SEZYP8jB MW/Q== Sender: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com X-Forwarded-Encrypted: i=1; AJvYcCUSCIcBO1Yr/dBsPan/eNSOZsTXXFI0iHQhAGMMy/6VazWwaySvho/YcVAHnaiK/T4yoQBrKAW08NZQo3x1nI0I/bezn3w= X-Gm-Message-State: AOJu0YxX/zZGIAO5VPeYCrtvaiAArAt0IQQw6rJ1wacCHFeqvrCON0DD A3gPcMjq3nHF5WWY/9yZdtg4ke9kqbPE95DWTcIu5wmZbh0DOhN8 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGHT+IHYrZvF5y2XyEjf3/bFKu5KDKZiYAYGPvMiuy8oAV0J9iVSkBlKz8LzMXvdbTdAiUy39bHdGA== X-Received: by 2002:a25:db4b:0:b0:dd0:972b:d218 with SMTP id g72-20020a25db4b000000b00dd0972bd218mr294096ybf.41.1712169463229; Wed, 03 Apr 2024 11:37:43 -0700 (PDT) X-BeenThere: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Received: by 2002:a25:7a47:0:b0:dcd:a08f:c840 with SMTP id v68-20020a257a47000000b00dcda08fc840ls283241ybc.1.-pod-prod-09-us; Wed, 03 Apr 2024 11:37:42 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a81:a0c6:0:b0:615:36af:1997 with SMTP id x189-20020a81a0c6000000b0061536af1997mr102455ywg.1.1712169462158; Wed, 03 Apr 2024 11:37:42 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 2002:a05:690c:ed3:b0:615:6ba5:7389 with SMTP id 00721157ae682-615845009f5ms7b3; Wed, 3 Apr 2024 11:18:50 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 2002:a81:8450:0:b0:615:24b7:c3af with SMTP id u77-20020a818450000000b0061524b7c3afmr77933ywf.5.1712168329590; Wed, 03 Apr 2024 11:18:49 -0700 (PDT) Date: Wed, 3 Apr 2024 11:18:49 -0700 (PDT) From: emsit To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Message-Id: <7a67edd1-0182-4170-90f4-998d12431024n@googlegroups.com> In-Reply-To: References: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] The Future of Bitcoin Testnet MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary="----=_Part_128_1077903939.1712168329147" X-Original-Sender: emsit@emsit.sk Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) ------=_Part_128_1077903939.1712168329147 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="----=_Part_129_1602676781.1712168329147" ------=_Part_129_1602676781.1712168329147 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Unfortunately, the current form of Testnet is doomed to have value, just=20 like BTC. Its scarcity makes it a valuable asset. And no reset will change= =20 that. It will only result in repeated resets, multiple versions of testnet,= =20 and people never learning. When I imagine what I would have to go through to mine testnet BTC, how=20 much time and money to invest (buying/renting ASIC - CPU mining is a thing= =20 of the past), and someone offered me a simpler alternative, to just buy it,= =20 I probably wouldn't hesitate and would just buy it. Many people HODL=20 testnet coins precisely because it's difficult to obtain them and they=20 don't want to give them up, regardless of their economic value. People have= =20 learned, CRYPTO =3D HODL. In my opinion, it's more important to address the issue so that testnet=20 doesn't need to be reset. Because it angers people, even those who aren't= =20 responsible and want to use it as intended. I'm afraid that after the=20 reset, mining will be very difficult, expensive, and impossible for most=20 people. Not everyone has an ASIC at home, and CPU mining is out of the=20 question. And faucets won't work. I'm also afraid that whales will emerge= =20 who will mine it from the beginning while the reward is high, for worse=20 times. I have a faucet myself and I know how my users behave, they always want=20 more, and most people HODL it. Only a negligible amount comes back to my=20 faucet. So, the idea of freely sharing is nice but unrealistic. A reset of testnet that will be "the same" as the old one doesn't make=20 sense to me. Wouldn't it be possible to pre-mine all the coins and=20 distribute them via faucet? Or generate more than 21M? If there are a large= =20 number of them, there will be enough for everyone and they will be=20 worthless. D=C3=A1tum: streda 3. apr=C3=ADla 2024, =C4=8Das: 8:41:41 UTC+2, odosielate= =C4=BE: Anthony Towns > On Mon, Apr 01, 2024 at 01:37:59PM +0000, Pieter Wuille wrote: > > I think there is an easier alternative to changing the supply rule: the= =20 > intention to reset it again when its subsidy drops too low. That may even= =20 > also counteract the development of a non-zero market price for the coins. > > We could put some weight behind this by committing to resetting testnet > in advance: eg, add a rule that says "blocks are invalid after height X" > or "after mediantime exceeds Y". > > Cheers, > aj > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/7a67edd1-0182-4170-90f4-998d12431024n%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_129_1602676781.1712168329147 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Unfortunately, the current form of Testnet is doom= ed to have value, just like BTC. Its scarcity makes it a valuable asset. An= d no reset will change that. It will only result in repeated resets, multip= le versions of testnet, and people never learning.

= When I imagine what I would have to go through to mine testnet BTC, how muc= h time and money to invest (buying/renting ASIC - CPU mining is a thing of = the past), and someone offered me a simpler alternative, to just buy it, I = probably wouldn't hesitate and would just buy it. Many people HODL testnet = coins precisely because it's difficult to obtain them and they don't want t= o give them up, regardless of their economic value. People have learned, CR= YPTO =3D HODL.

In my opinion, it's more important t= o address the issue so that testnet doesn't need to be reset. Because it an= gers people, even those who aren't responsible and want to use it as intend= ed. I'm afraid that after the reset, mining will be very difficult, expensi= ve, and impossible for most people. Not everyone has an ASIC at home, and C= PU mining is out of the question. And faucets won't work. I'm also afraid t= hat whales will emerge who will mine it from the beginning while the reward= is high, for worse times.

I have a faucet myself a= nd I know how my users behave, they always want more, and most people HODL = it. Only a negligible amount comes back to my faucet. So, the idea of freel= y sharing is nice but unrealistic.

A reset of t= estnet that will be "the same" as the old one doesn't make sense to me. Wou= ldn't it be possible to pre-mine all the coins and distribute them via fauc= et? Or generate more than 21M? If there are a large number of them, there w= ill be enough for everyone and they will be worthless.


D=C3=A1tum: streda = 3. apr=C3=ADla 2024, =C4=8Das: 8:41:41 UTC+2, odosielate=C4=BE: Anthony Tow= ns
On Mon, Ap= r 01, 2024 at 01:37:59PM +0000, Pieter Wuille wrote:
> I think there is an easier alternative to changing the supply rule= : the intention to reset it again when its subsidy drops too low. That may = even also counteract the development of a non-zero market price for the coi= ns.

We could put some weight behind this by committing to resetting testnet
in advance: eg, add a rule that says "blocks are invalid after hei= ght X"
or "after mediantime exceeds Y".

Cheers,
aj

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To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoind= ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com.
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