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Tue, 19 Jan 2021 07:44:28 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/simple; d=riseup.net; s=squak; t=1611071068; bh=vzTs4TSOng07IQy9X37GGW4JFllo0gF2lcaWaYooXp8=; h=Subject:To:References:From:Date:In-Reply-To:From; b=ShGOfC/U3FA6z2+IxC36dGMB09yCmzwA5x/fX/XIPWC378G0FO5jXp4B8EOOjcZwY K/lIW7l6/eHihgXlVYc/nG2lVufBR6sV6XU+lkcvtaUebIDWO6DFme7CwgfmGqrMEJ NF1kYKv79xg04PJTYr4r5ryVzSNWn2xFjqYyYlZA= X-Riseup-User-ID: 8E37528E014DF6A4FA5C335B3B3D6CBB9F0B7F101FE6A042320A173306D4E8CC Received: from [127.0.0.1] (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by fews2.riseup.net (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id 4DKtHv1wpTz1xtg; Tue, 19 Jan 2021 07:44:23 -0800 (PST) To: Lucas Ontivero , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion References: <2b8ba39f-8fe9-8800-b8e6-47ca263774d5@riseup.net> From: Chris Belcher Autocrypt: addr=belcher@riseup.net; prefer-encrypt=mutual; keydata= xsFNBFPk74oBEACzBLjd+Z5z7eimqPuObFTaJCTXP7fgZjgVwt+q94VQ2wM0ctk/Ft9w2A92 f14T7PiHaVDjHxrcW+6sw2VI2f60T8Tjf+b4701hIybluWL8DntG9BW19bZLmjAj7zkgektl YNDUrlYcQq2OEHm/MGk6Ajt2RA56aRKqoz22e+4ZA89gDgamxUAadul7AETSsgqOEUDI0FKR FODzoH65w1ien/DLkG1f76jd0XA6AxrESJVO0JzvkTnJGElBcA37rYaMmDi4DhG2MY4u63VE 8h6DyUXcRhmTZIAj+r+Ht+KMDiuiyQcKywCzzF/7Ui7YxqeAgjm5aPDU2E8X9Qd7cqHQzFM7 ZCqc9P6ENAk5a0JjHw0d0knApboSvkIJUB0j1xDIS0HaRlfHM4TPdOoDgnaXb7BvDfE+0zSz WkvAns9oJV6uWdnz5kllVCjgB/FXO4plyFCHhXikXjm1XuQyL8xV88OqgDFXwVhKrDL9Pknu sTchYm3BS2b5Xq1HQqToT3I2gRGTtDzZVZV0izCefJaDp1mf49k2cokDEfw9MroEj4A0Wfht 0J64pzlBYn/9zor5cZp/EAblLRDK6HKhSZArIiDR1RC7a6s7oTzmfn0suhKDdTzkbTAnDsPi Dokl58xoxz+JdYKjzVh98lpcvMPlbZ+LwIsgbdH4KZj7mVOsJwARAQABzR9DaHJpcyBCZWxj aGVyIDxmYWxzZUBlbWFpbC5jb20+wsF+BBMBAgAoBQJT5O+KAhsDBQkSzAMABgsJCAcDAgYV CAIJCgsEFgIDAQIeAQIXgAAKCRDvc06md/MRKS8jD/9P9fSYSIVjltL9brAMfIu7wJn0H0lX TbcuCM2uQitJ3BNxI3c7aq5dEby27u5Ud54otncDJuRPQVDKs6H7t1rInitgJ1MTQ9/aQGFA btKcgtVIMFbeClzTTfWr4W7fE45NI7E9EANgk5JfmWh3U+KINYLF5RtqynYocrsP6zOV+G9A HCpBemd9TN60CoMLMyMzTHEW1oQffaVAXY8DgthEYO/odWYIod7VTmEm0zU1aSysPqMwPWNm 8XIl0f8SfKQyZlAU8e1eCFVCenkE44FKC5qQNYc2UxexEYtfCWChTGc4oHKxIyYmTCCefsQF LvgwtvlNHRXHSDKSPSNcRcpl8DFpNEKrmMlkJ8Mx+YR05CydlTQ0bI3FBohJC+UHrjD5I3hA wJUC1o+yVSOEd+zN3cG1EECIwkEQSmBgG5t/le2RdzfXOdpf9ku2/zoBpq00R54JxUKlfRM7 OPTv7X+1AKHkxOySdCZwGgvdh2Whuqs4kTvtco00gCFM9fBd5oi1RJuHtxHsj8+/XU15UItb jeo96CIlM5YUeoRLPT5mxZYWgYAARFeSFReNq/Tuwq9d8EokUrtAyrPayznliy53UJfWDVzl 925c0Cz0HWaP2fWj+uFcj/8K0bhptuWJQy0Poht1z3aJC1UjEgr1Xz8I7jeSJmIlA9plcJw2 k4dhWc7BTQRT5O+KARAAyFxAM28EQwLctr0CrQhYWZfMKzAhCw+EyrUJ+/e4uiAQ4OyXifRr ZV6kLRul3WbTB1kpA6wgCShO0N3vw8fFG2Cs6QphVagEH8yfQUroaVxgADYOTLHMOb7INS8r KI/uRNmE6bXTX27oaqCEXLMycqYlufad7hr42S/T8zNh5m2vl6T/1Poj2/ormViKwAxM+8qf xd8FNI4UKmq2zZE9mZ5PiSIX0qRgM0yCvxV39ex/nhxzouTBvv4Lb1ntplR/bMLrHxsCzhyM KDgcX7ApGm+y6YEsOvzw9rRCRuJpE4lth8ShgjTtNTHfklBD6Ztymc7q7bdPWpKOEvO5lDQ6 q8+KfENv862cOLlWLk7YR2+mHZ1PXGhWC7ggwEkfGJoXo0x8X+zgUKe2+9Jj4yEhfL0IbFYC z2J5d+cWVIBktI3xqkwLUZWuAbE3vgYA4h8ztR6l18NTPkiAvpNQEaL4ZRnAx22WdsQ8GlEW dyKZBWbLUdNcMmPfGi5FCw2nNvCyN6ktv5mTZE12EqgvpzYcuUGQPIMV9KTlSPum3NLDq8QI 6grbG8iNNpEBxmCQOKz2/BuYApU2hwt2E44fL8e6CRK3ridcRdqpueg75my6KkOqm8nSiMEc /pVIHwdJ9/quiuRaeC/tZWlYPIwDWgb8ZE/g66z35WAguMQ+EwfvgAUAEQEAAcLBZQQYAQIA DwUCU+TvigIbDAUJEswDAAAKCRDvc06md/MRKaZwD/9OI3o3gVmst/mGx6hVQry++ht8dFWN IiASPBvD3E5EWbqWi6mmqSIOS6CxjU0PncxTBPCXtzxo/WzuHGQg/xtNeQ0T8b2lBScZAw93 qm1IcHXLUe5w/Tap6YaDmSYCIZAdtbHzYfPW4JK7cmvcjvF8jhTFOBEOFVQkTi19G7caVot0 +wL1e2DRHDXAe5CinEpaLBlwHeEu/5j6wc3erohUZlK9IbAclj4iZTQbaq3EyqUXl59dBOON xmL5edJxzVishIYQGIyA9WP1SylXt+kO82NEqZG2OxdXAlzjuJ8C2pAG+nbLtDo4hcsiN/MA aX9/JB7MXclT5ioerF4yNgKEdfq7LmynsTUd8w/Ilyp7AD+BWoujyO94i8h9eKvjf9PvSwxQ uAjRpxne7ZJD8vCsMNXBHSbeEK2LiwStHL/w473viXpDD53J6OLxX6a5RummR+rixbMH7dgK MJQ7FlyDphm3or6CSkGEir1KA0y1vqQNFtHhguFapAWMDKaJjQQNgvZUmOo6hbZqmvUF1OWc d6GA6j3WOUe3fDJXfbq6P9Jmxq64op887dYKsg7xjQq/7KM7wyRcqXXcbBdgvNtVDP+EnzBN HyYY/3ms4YIHE5JHxQ9LV4yPcWkYTvb1XpNIFVbrSXAeyGHVNT+SO6olFovbWIC3Az9yesaM 1aSoTg== Message-ID: <828e0ad4-8fe6-7db9-630f-daae51c04c3a@riseup.net> Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 15:44:11 +0000 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Language: en-US Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] PayJoin adoption X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2021 15:44:31 -0000 Regarding incentives, privacy is itself an incentive. If your business suffers from being spied on (for example you're a casino or p2p exchange, and regulated exchanges keep banning your customers) then the cost of adopting payjoin is worth it. That's why I expect and hope that p2p exchanges will be one of the earlier adopters. While researching for the Adoption page I was surprised to find that one exchange has already adopted PayJoin: a no-signup altcoin exchange called sideshift.ai On 18/01/2021 20:38, Lucas Ontivero wrote: > Hi > > Before all, thanks for the wiki page tracking the payjoin adoption, it is a > good idea. > > ----- > > Even when there is a reasonable economical incentive to use segwit > transactions to save fees a big percentage of the transactions are not > using segwit yet. In the case of payjoins the economic incentives are not > so big while the privacy benefits are not so clear for the payer as they > are for the global transactions graph as a whole. This means that payjoins > requires some level of altruist attitude from the payers. The payjoins UX > is also not good because I think most users are not familiar with bip21 > uris (users still request support because they pay a bech32 address in an > exchange and the exchange tells them that's not a valid bitcoin address). > All this is relative and subjective but in general terms I would say it is > more or less true for many people. > > Anyway, imagine wallets' developers agree on making payjoins payment by > default because it is the right thing to do (fight against surveillance to > spy on bitcoin users and improve bitcoin's fungibility). In that case it > should be completely transparent to the users and at not cost, it shouldn't > require the user to do anything different, it shouldn't be noticeable > slower, etc. In fact, users should have to know they are payjoining at all. > > The only way I see to achieve something like that is by moving to schemes > where wallets can communicate and interact. I should be able to know > something about you that allows me to select your name from my contact list > and select "Pay to Chris" and if my wallet knows how to find yours then it > can request a new address and pays, or generate a new one for you (probably > using a output descriptor you created to share with me). > > Sorry for the long semi-random rant. > > El vie, 15 ene 2021 a las 21:07, Chris Belcher via bitcoin-dev (< > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>) escribió: > >> PayJoin is an exciting bitcoin privacy technology which has the >> potential to damage the ability of blockchain surveillance to spy on >> bitcoin users and destroy bitcoin's fungibility. A protocol standard has >> already been defined and implemented by a couple of projects such as >> BTCPayServer, Wasabi Wallet, JoinMarket and BlueWallet. >> >> I've made a wiki page tracking adoption: >> https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/PayJoin_adoption >> >> It is similar to the Bech32 adoption page. >> >> >> Recently a UK bitcoin exchange shut down due to new regulations, with >> the owner writing a very interesting and relevant blog post that I'll >> quote here: >> >>> you’re considered suspicious if you used a marketplace and not an >> exchange. Coinjoin counts as high risk. Gambling is high risk. As you >> use entities that are paranoid about keeping their coins clean and >> adhering to all the regulations, your risk scores will continue to >> increase and without you even knowing why, your deposits will become >> rejected, you may be asked to supply documents or lose the coins, your >> account may become suspended without you having any clue what you did >> wrong. And quite possibly you didn’t do anything wrong. But that won’t >> matter. >>> >>> The goal post, the risk score threshold will keep moving along this >> trend until the point where you will be afraid of using your personal >> wallet, donating to someone online, receiving bitcoins from anywhere >> except for regulated exchanges. At that point, crypto will be akin to a >> regular bank account. You won’t have a bitcoin wallet, you will have >> accounts to websites. >> >> https://blog.bitbargain.com/post/638504004285054976/goodbye >> >> If we want bitcoin to fulfill its dream of a permissionless money for >> the internet then we'll have to work on this. What can we do to increase >> adoption of PayJoin? >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> >