From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2E75D720 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 01:13:37 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-pg0-f44.google.com (mail-pg0-f44.google.com [74.125.83.44]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EB60131 for ; Fri, 31 Mar 2017 01:13:36 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id 21so55036644pgg.1 for ; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:13:36 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=thinlink-com.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date:user-agent :mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=uFvY2jRCN3l/L8AC6MAKKDQdZwiplbTfxy0ROhLRTIc=; b=gxS+T9jxeLtaMk1V5XOIltpAhGpoRG1VmYQdZwlpf/NWwaYq/62zG0FgRZui34PeWt J/3/EJxZKgcHdmglq+AorwOYpX5NSVGvC9OeKdNJ5m4tIXmDfJq/uvptTvL51CMazfX2 defL7p471y3jjHi87tDPAH3YU9T5w10WoyfqtzKkqpECE20pD6dCrigV10jo+e24VWuc q/ck8I4Lz25siC/my9Kki6lJZEfF49I5ZY8ZA6DXcMRFardVEFKiY5XfacsRewRuroZo ePBGkHh1xGNwSlBInB39BZ/SU4CzEIQ7aqg8/wepGF9Xucbc/8o0NxNS0RIHGJ5ALILJ 7lVQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:subject:to:references:cc:from:message-id:date :user-agent:mime-version:in-reply-to; bh=uFvY2jRCN3l/L8AC6MAKKDQdZwiplbTfxy0ROhLRTIc=; b=Km1Nfz1XzWJZwEvDkESDdyFuzveLYlMIR/P0SRoVLR8+poaKUprjGJRu2RXsXdLIk4 cKjO6bDQTFKtb+8uDRWeWfU82BG4KtoiypsAJxCTgI7/l1Xneo2IR5Uz7DtjlqDNXQD8 +EAY8naYuFqQFaFAXJCYgfqdOB5abfMqd/UYIfIjaSaAucs8ltVTTwZzGfSiB9UuAxiP vvT4wetT9z5CzAHxZ51rM6BkkGIgucgh9iEQL6sTG6XdgSXB9nsiBJVZSlki2lk11bAk lYHNG2LsMSONwrp92aEiAd3QwoQ4LgIb8kNUpEBPu6FZwzjze3yRMdRZ8VPnNB2D9a1R +MNg== X-Gm-Message-State: AFeK/H3MQfSARvVSIDv90JODAkKUxr969ojc5QeHJvZGY1u9Wtj27Xh5PG3L4q+maCLmSQ4Q X-Received: by 10.98.160.212 with SMTP id p81mr261820pfl.204.1490922815778; Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:13:35 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.89] (99-8-65-117.lightspeed.davlca.sbcglobal.net. [99.8.65.117]) by smtp.googlemail.com with ESMTPSA id u198sm6611151pgb.45.2017.03.30.18.13.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:13:34 -0700 (PDT) To: David Vorick , Bitcoin Dev References: From: Tom Harding Message-ID: <84eb5e29-b97d-38e5-763f-eb784e83d209@thinlink.com> Date: Thu, 30 Mar 2017 18:13:35 -0700 User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows NT 6.3; WOW64; rv:45.0) Gecko/20100101 Thunderbird/45.8.0 MIME-Version: 1.0 In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------1F429463904CFD16B0DD34E8" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 01:29:56 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] High fees / centralization X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 31 Mar 2017 01:13:37 -0000 This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------1F429463904CFD16B0DD34E8 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit On 3/30/2017 9:14 AM, David Vorick wrote: > On Mar 30, 2017 12:04 PM, "Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev" > > wrote: > > Raystonn, > > Your logic is very hard to dispute. An important special case is > small miners. > > Small miners use pools exactly because they want smaller, more > frequent payments. > > Rising fees force them to take payments less frequently, and will > only tend to make more of them give up. > > With fees rising superlinearly, this centralizing effect is much > stronger than the oft-cited worry of small miners joining large > pools to decrease orphan rates. > > > Miners get paid on average once every ten minutes. The size of fees > and the number of fee transactions does not change the payout rate. > > Further, we are very far from the point (in my appraisal) where fees > are high enough to block home users from using the network. > > Bitcoin has many high-value use cases such as savings. We should not > throw away the core innovation of monetary sovereignty in pursuit of > supporting 0.1% of the world's daily transactions. > Owners of small mining rigs get paid by pools, generally using regular transactions that pay regular fees (p2pool is an exception that pays directly from coinbase). The point is the unintended consequences are directly at odds with one of the justifications offered for small blocks - miner centralization. This is a special case. Raystonn's general point was that high fees will lead to fewer economic actors overall, and therefore fewer full nodes. --------------1F429463904CFD16B0DD34E8 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 8bit On 3/30/2017 9:14 AM, David Vorick wrote:
On Mar 30, 2017 12:04 PM, "Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev" <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Raystonn, 

Your logic is very hard to dispute. An important special case is small miners.

Small miners use pools exactly because they want smaller, more frequent payments.

Rising fees force them to take payments less frequently, and will only tend to make more of them give up.

With fees rising superlinearly, this centralizing effect is much stronger than the oft-cited worry of small miners joining large pools to decrease orphan rates.

Miners get paid on average once every ten minutes. The size of fees and the number of fee transactions does not change the payout rate.

Further, we are very far from the point (in my appraisal) where fees are high enough to block home users from using the network.

Bitcoin has many high-value use cases such as savings. We should not throw away the core innovation of monetary sovereignty in pursuit of supporting 0.1% of the world's daily transactions.


Owners of small mining rigs get paid by pools, generally using regular transactions that pay regular fees (p2pool is an exception that pays directly from coinbase).  The point is the unintended consequences are directly at odds with one of the justifications offered for small blocks - miner centralization.

This is a special case.  Raystonn's general point was that high fees will lead to fewer economic actors overall, and therefore fewer full nodes.

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