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[2003:dd:6712:6426:89de:d8f7:6832:84c1]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k124sm5513842wmk.47.2019.07.06.06.34.33 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sat, 06 Jul 2019 06:34:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Tamas Blummer Message-Id: <8D68DC86-1173-43AC-BC84-FE2834741C13@gmail.com> Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_5801FADA-519C-4FA2-9B9B-CDA17B86233F"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Sat, 6 Jul 2019 15:34:31 +0200 In-Reply-To: <0851B842-34A1-427F-95DC-A1D6AB416FB9@voskuil.org> To: Eric Voskuil References: <0DBC0DEA-C999-4AEE-B2E1-D5337ECD9405@gmail.com> <6B9A04E2-8EEE-40A0-8B39-64AA0F478CAB@voskuil.org> <4mT6iC4Va7Afg15a5NLbddAnF2a_vAcQSXYr_jg_5IyEK2ezblJff7EJZakoqvp4BJlLitt9Zlq1_l5JadR0nVss7VDPW-pv8jXGh7lkFC4=@protonmail.com> <0851B842-34A1-427F-95DC-A1D6AB416FB9@voskuil.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 16:42:26 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable riskless or risky lending, prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 06 Jul 2019 13:34:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_5801FADA-519C-4FA2-9B9B-CDA17B86233F Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Hi Eric, > On Jul 6, 2019, at 03:28, Eric Voskuil wrote: >=20 >=20 >=20 >> On Jul 5, 2019, at 17:17, ZmnSCPxj wrote: >>=20 >> Good morning Eric, >>=20 >>> But it=E2=80=99s worth noting that early recovery of the UTXO = entirely eliminates the value of the time lock cost to the ad market. = The most obvious example is one encumbering the coin to himself, then = releasing it with his own two signatures whenever he wants. In other = words, there is no encumbrance at all, just a bunch of pointless = obscurantion. >>=20 >> You still do not understand. >> I strongly suggest actually reading the post instead of skimming it. >=20 > I am responding to the cryptoeconomic principles, not the = implementation details. Based on your comments here I am not = misrepresenting those principles. >=20 > For example, I have shown that the multisig unlock implementation = reduces the presumably-encumbered UTXO to simply a UTXO. You have not = disputed that. In fact below you have accepted it (more below). >=20 >> The advertisement is broadcast to new nodes on the ad network if and = only if its backing UTXO remains unspent. >> Once the UTXO is spent, then the advertisement is considered no = longer valid and will be outright deleted by existing nodes, and new = nodes will not learn of them (and would consider it spam if it is forced = to them when the UTXO is already spent, possibly banning the node that = pushes the advertisement at them). >>=20 >> Thus the locked-ness of the UTXO is the lifetime of the = advertisement. >=20 > The term =E2=80=9Clocked=E2=80=9D here is misused. A unspent output = that can be spent at any time is just an unspent output. The fact that = you can =E2=80=9Cunencumber=E2=80=9D your own coins should make this = exceedingly obvious: >=20 >> Once you disencumber the coins (whether your own, or rented) then = your advertisement is gone; forever. >=20 > As I have shown, there is no *actual* encumbrance. >=20 If you have to forgo using your money while using a service that = encumbers you. You incur opportunity cost proportional to time you use = the service and the amount you waived to use elsewhere. No crypto is needed to understand this. >> Your advertisement exists only as long as the UTXO is unspent. >=20 > Exactly, which implies *any* UTXO is sufficient. All that the ad = network requires is proof of ownership of any UTXO. >=20 Not any, but one with significant value, so a service with limited = bandwith can prioritize by that. > Best, > Eric >=20 >> Regards. >> ZmnSCPxj Best, Tamas Blummer --Apple-Mail=_5801FADA-519C-4FA2-9B9B-CDA17B86233F Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEE6YNJViYMM6Iv5f9e9nKRxRdxORwFAl0go2cACgkQ9nKRxRdx ORzflAgAu1Lcm511vRPS4+sypWZnGDfaYCN8arx0VT8avB2Y8yL94Q+eHqDGmn3P BQ7NuHRX1d9Uzv27TOMwJCigU+T2NMHBOv9D6unA8XCsRFM+cFNw4yHdN/LPr7vl VZxQjTLKNhknHOR1HGaefQJ04CJaXtnvmcaoI5aTVRhWFN9l1qsdVZwdTagqf9vV u9wGB2keERKSOvPLmDWuP0cXkZS0SmRGaC725b4pNE10gQ5MMFQcRKTfqlbWcQaQ Ac/52bmjNuue8bhasEtLcxurEdiQMziWrLLDavD3d/djw+qFAhuq0bSjBPJ7Z6oZ XEtDl8FqIr5/kGpzzxYK5WB/KeuiSw== =S02K -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_5801FADA-519C-4FA2-9B9B-CDA17B86233F--