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[2001:470:88ff:2f::1]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTP id a19-20020a17090a8c1300b002a213e8259asi771746pjo.1.2024.03.31.07.33.45 for ; Sun, 31 Mar 2024 07:33:45 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of luke@dashjr.org designates 2001:470:88ff:2f::1 as permitted sender) client-ip=2001:470:88ff:2f::1; Received: from [192.168.86.103] (99-39-46-195.lightspeed.dybhfl.sbcglobal.net [99.39.46.195]) (Authenticated sender: luke-jr) by zinan.dashjr.org (Postfix) with ESMTPSA id DB5DB8C028D; Sun, 31 Mar 2024 14:33:28 +0000 (UTC) X-Hashcash: 1:23:240331:jameson.lopp@gmail.com::pc/sTg32Mnb=r/M3:Yczj X-Hashcash: 1:23:240331:bitcoindev@googlegroups.com::IEpy+nBMBzg+brq6:fvwk Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="------------PMWUY3DWHsUk6GL5PYpqTaCM" Message-ID: <8c6e98ff-bdec-4955-8132-bd93af2d40dd@dashjr.org> Date: Sun, 31 Mar 2024 10:33:22 -0400 MIME-Version: 1.0 User-Agent: Mozilla Thunderbird Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] The Future of Bitcoin Testnet Content-Language: en-US, en-GB To: Jameson Lopp , bitcoindev@googlegroups.com References: From: Luke Dashjr In-Reply-To: X-Original-Sender: luke@dashjr.org X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@dashjr.org header.s=zinan header.b=lqI9RjAe; spf=pass (google.com: domain of luke@dashjr.org designates 2001:470:88ff:2f::1 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=luke@dashjr.org; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=NONE dis=NONE) header.from=dashjr.org Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --------------PMWUY3DWHsUk6GL5PYpqTaCM Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8"; format=flowed Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Is the difficulty reset bug actually a bug, or a feature? If it's a bug, couldn't we just fix it and let the blockchain reorg on=20 its own? Signet is definitely not a replacement for testnet. Luke On 3/31/24 09:19, Jameson Lopp wrote: > Hi all, > > I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some feelers=20 > on potential changes to it. First, a few facts: > > 1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million=20 > something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is=20 > not doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more. > > 2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather=20 > amusing edge case bug that causes the difficulty to regularly get=20 > reset to 1, which causes a bit of havoc. If you want a deep dive into=20 > the quirk: https://blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/ > > 3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us=20 > who tend to be generous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by=20 > non-developers chasing cheap gains. > > 4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could=20 > argue that the fundamental principle of testnet=C2=A0coins having no valu= e=20 > has been broken. > > This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm=20 > soliciting feedback. > > 1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has=20 > been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to=20 > be updated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice? > > 2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be=20 > a one liner fix, and I'd argue it could be done sooner rather than=20 > later, and orthogonal to the network reset question. Would such a=20 > change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a=20 > self resolving fork due to the difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP=20 > or could we just YOLO it? > > 3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate=20 > testnet in favor of signet? > > - Jameson > --=20 > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google=20 > Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send=20 > an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. > To view this discussion on the web visit=20 > https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CADL_X_eXjbRFROuJU0b336vPVy5= Q2RJvhcx64NSNPH-3fDCUfw%40mail.gmail.com=20 > . --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/8c6e98ff-bdec-4955-8132-bd93af2d40dd%40dashjr.org. --------------PMWUY3DWHsUk6GL5PYpqTaCM Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

Is the difficulty reset bug actually a bug, or a feature?

If it's a bug, couldn't we just fix it and let the blockchain reorg on its own?

Signet is definitely not a replacement for testnet.

Luke


On 3/31/24 09:19, Jameson Lopp wrote:
Hi all,

I'd like to open a discussion about testnet3 to put out some feelers on potential changes to it. First, a few facts:

1. Testnet3 has been running for 13 years. It's on block 2.5 million something and the block reward is down to ~0.014 TBTC, so mining is not doing a great job at distributing testnet coins any more.

2. The reason the block height is insanely high is due to a rather amusing edge case bug that causes the difficulty to regularly get reset to 1, which causes a bit of havoc. If you want a deep dive into the quirk:=C2=A0https:= //blog.lopp.net/the-block-storms-of-bitcoins-testnet/

3. Testnet3 is being actively used for scammy airdrops; those of us who tend to be generous with our testnet coins are getting hounded by non-developers chasing cheap gains.

4. As a result, TBTC is being actively bought and sold; one could argue that the fundamental principle of testnet=C2=A0coins having no value has been broken.

This leads me to ponder the following questions, for which I'm soliciting feedback.

1. Should we plan for a reset of testnet? If so, given how long it has been since the last reset and how many production systems will need to be updated, would a reset need to be done with a great deal of notice?

2. Is there interest in fixing the difficulty reset bug? It should be a one liner fix, and I'd argue it could be done sooner rather than later, and orthogonal to the network reset question. Would such a change, which would technically be a hard fork (but also arguably a self resolving fork due to the difficulty dynamics) necessitate a BIP or could we just YOLO it?

3. Is all of the above a waste of time and we should instead deprecate testnet in favor of signet?

- Jameson
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