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[185.70.40.136]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id v7-20020a5d6787000000b00343b2a78b5fsi213255wru.0.2024.04.20.16.05.36 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_256_GCM_SHA384 bits=256/256); Sat, 20 Apr 2024 16:05:36 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of lists@achow101.com designates 185.70.40.136 as permitted sender) client-ip=185.70.40.136; Date: Sat, 20 Apr 2024 23:05:28 +0000 To: Michael Folkson From: "'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Development Mailing List" Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Re: Adding New BIP Editors Message-ID: <97a10141-8847-417a-af11-d95e7d3be064@achow101.com> In-Reply-To: References: <2092f7ff-4860-47f8-ba1a-c9d97927551e@achow101.com> <77554baa9330c57361c65c1fc85557f1@dtrt.org> <7b4e2223-0b96-4ca0-a441-aebcfc7b0bben@googlegroups.com> <070755a0-10e9-4903-9524-dd8ef98c1c8b@achow101.com> <0d4d85e3-9fbb-4bd4-af0f-92225e699b63@achow101.com> Feedback-ID: 53660394:user:proton X-Pm-Message-ID: 01a8d81b0915802e994f3ba82954471ed7e3d5b9 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable X-Original-Sender: lists@achow101.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@achow101.com header.s=protonmail3 header.b=JdZQxv1R; spf=pass (google.com: domain of lists@achow101.com designates 185.70.40.136 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=lists@achow101.com; dmarc=pass (p=REJECT sp=REJECT dis=NONE) header.from=achow101.com X-Original-From: Ava Chow Reply-To: Ava Chow Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -1.0 (-) On 04/20/2024 06:21 PM, Michael Folkson wrote: > It is inevitable there will be a "revert war" unless they all have to > agree on merge decisions or communicate prior to merging. It is just a > matter of time. Does for example Ordinal Numbers get a BIP number? I > suspect all the new BIP editors won't agree on that. Why do you think that a revert war is inevitable? The Bitcoin Core repo operates in a similar way - the maintainers are=20 independent and work autonomously. The maintainers do not have to agree=20 on merge decisions nor do they communicate prior to merging. If there's=20 disagreement about a merge decision, we talk to each other about it like=20 adults and come to a mutually agreeable resolution. I don't think=20 there's ever been a revert war in the history of Bitcoin. I would expect that when there is something that is likely to be=20 controversial or is ambiguous that it should be a BIP that they would=20 then talk to each other about it. It doesn't have to be all or nothing -=20 they can do most work without communicating, but when there's questions=20 or ambiguity, then they communicate. > Who is to blame in a "revert war" if each editor is free to merge > whatever pull request they like? The editor who merged it? Why should > they be removed as an editor for merging a pull request when they find > out later a different editor disagreed with that merge decision and > wants to revert the merge? A revert war would be someone merging a PR that reverts another, then=20 someone else (opening then) merging a PR that reverts that, and it goes=20 back and forth. It would not be limited to PRs only. This would likely=20 be super obvious too that they are controversially merging things as I=20 would be surprised if other BIP editors didn't comment on any of those=20 actions, besides the fact that many people do also watch the BIPs repo.=20 Regardless, the blame is on those who are doing the reverting, and would=20 be both sides. > I'm even more concerned about future soft fork activation attempts. > These don't necessarily need to be attempted via a Bitcoin Core merged > pull request hence the BIPs repo could be a key source of information > and guidance on this. This concern doesn't make any sense. There are already multiple soft and=20 hard fork BIPs that are not active nor good ideas. A BIP does not need=20 to be a good idea. > I've seen Wladimir is contributing again to Core. Is there a plan to > give him commit access again? It would have to be through the typical maintainer process, although I=20 doubt that he even wants it. But that's completely orthogonal to the=20 BIPs repo discussion. > I'd be more comfortable with him > overseeing things in the various repos under the Bitcoin Core > (/bitcoin) GitHub org as it sounds like you don't really care if the > BIPs repo degenerates into a free for all. I don't understand why you assume that. I've said this before, but if I see a revert war going on in the BIPs=20 repo, I will remove those involved immediately and make a thread on the=20 list to discuss what to do about them. But I doubt that's a scenario=20 that will actually come to pass. Ava >=20 > Thanks > Michael >=20 > On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 10:15=E2=80=AFPM 'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Developme= nt > Mailing List wrote: >> >> On 04/20/2024 04:46 PM, Steve Lee wrote: >>> Wasn't there evidence provided that Kanzure does not want this >>> responsibility without being paid? >> >> I am not aware of that, and it hasn't come up when I've talked to him >> about being a BIPs editor. >> >>> I'm confused by this process that we don't even ask the people if they >>> want the responsibility? I think only Laolu has chimed in to commit to = it? >> >> Personally, I've spoken to all 5 privately and they've all confirmed to >> me that they are willing to be BIPs editors. Jonatack[1] and Murch[2] >> have also replied to this thread about this. >> >> Ava >> >> [1]: >> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/83b69000-ca1e-4a58-90b5-114cb09ac0bbn@g= ooglegroups.com/ >> [2]: >> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a-920b-32bd88d5e778@mu= rch.one/ >> >>> >>> On Sat, Apr 20, 2024 at 12:30=E2=80=AFPM 'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Develop= ment >>> Mailing List >> > wrote: >>> >>> Since we're now past the deadline of April 19th, I'd like to infor= m >>> everyone of what will happen on Monday. >>> >>> There has not been any actual objections to the nominees nor have = there >>> been any suggestions on choosing a subset of them since my last em= ail. >>> As such, there is rough consensus on adding Kanzure, Murch, Jonata= ck, >>> Ruben, and Roasbeef as BIP editors, and they will be added on Mond= ay >>> April 22nd. >>> >>> Ava >>> >>> On 04/16/2024 01:08 PM, 'Ava Chow' via Bitcoin Development Mailing= List >>> wrote: >>> > While I don't disagree that 5 or 6 people seems like a lot to a= dd at >>> > once, it's not clear to me how we should decide which subset of= the >>> > nominees should be added. As it is now, I have only seen an act= ual >>> > objection to Kanzure and Ruben from /dev/fd0, and no explicit >>> objections >>> > to anyone else. It seems like the vast majority of people don't= share >>> > their concerns either as both Kanzure and Ruben continue to be >>> endorsed >>> > by many others. >>> > >>> > Looking at the endorsements each candidate has received, the cu= rrent >>> > counts are: >>> > * Kanzure - 17 for, 1 against >>> > * Murch - 13 for >>> > * Jonatack - 13 for >>> > * Ruben - 12 for, 1 against >>> > * Roasbeef - 9 for >>> > * Michael Folkson - none >>> > >>> > However, I don't want this process to become a popularity conte= st and >>> > require some kind of formal voting. Rather I'd prefer that this >>> process >>> > be something more like how Bitcoin Core maintainers are added -= by >>> > achieving rough consensus. Without any explicit objections to a= ny of >>> > these candidates, I'm inclined to move forward with adding the = 5 who >>> > have received endorsements. Having to pick "winners" from this = list >>> > seems like a quick way to stir up drama that I don't think anyo= ne >>> really >>> > wants to deal with. >>> > >>> > I do want to note that neither Kanzure, Ruben, nor Roasbeef hav= e >>> posted >>> > on this list that they are willing to be BIP editors. I have >>> reached out >>> > to all 3 of them privately, and received responses from Kanzure= and >>> > Ruben that indicate that they probably are willing, but public >>> > confirmation from them on this list would also be nice. I have = not >>> > received a response from Roasbeef. >>> > >>> > Ava >>> > >>> > On 04/11/2024 10:22 AM, Sergi Delgado Segura wrote: >>> >> > I would prefer having more (9+?) than less folks on this >>> task, so >>> >> personal preferences are easily ignored and overwritten by the= group >>> >> majority. >>> >> >>> >> I disagree with that, the more doesn't really the better here. >>> Having >>> >> too many editors may result in a tragedy of the commons, in >>> which people >>> >> just commit to the job because many others do, and they do not >>> end up >>> >> doing as much because they expect others to do the it. This do= es not >>> >> only make the process look bad but may burnout the ones that e= nd up >>> >> doing the job, given their time commitment ends up being too f= ar >>> from >>> >> their expectations. >>> >> >>> >> I think being more moderate with the amount of people is bette= r, and >>> >> gives us leeway in case the workload ends up being excessive a= nd >>> we need >>> >> to add more people (plus discourage people from joining and >>> slacking off). >>> >> >>> >> I think 3 more people should be a good number to start from. >>> >> I'd personally vouch for Murch, Kanzure, and Ruben based on >>> their track >>> >> record in the space >>> >> >>> >> On Tue, Apr 2, 2024 at 4:30=E2=80=AFPM nvk >> >>> >> >> wrote: >>> >> >>> >> +1 for >>> >> Kanzure >>> >> RubenSomsen >>> >> Seccour >>> >> Jon Atack >>> >> Roasbeef >>> >> >>> >> I would prefer having more (9+?) than less folks on this task,= so >>> >> personal preferences are easily ignored and overwritten by the= group >>> >> majority. >>> >> >>> >> BIPs were intended as a means to collect ideas, not enforce id= eas. >>> >> >>> >> I'd like to return to that. >>> >> >>> >> - NVK (temp gmail account) >>> >> >>> >> On Monday, April 1, 2024 at 5:16:54=E2=80=AFPM UTC-4 Davi= d A. >>> Harding wrote: >>> >> >>> >> On 2024-03-28 10:04, Matt Corallo wrote: >>> >> > Please provide justification rather than simply >>> saying "I >>> >> like Bob!". >>> >> >>> >> Using only comments from the mailing list, the >>> following appears >>> >> to be >>> >> the candidate list along with the current support. >>> Asterisks denote >>> >> candidates who indicated their willingness to accept >>> the role. >>> >> >>> >> - Bryan "Kanzure" Bishop, recommended by Ava Chow[1],= Chris >>> >> Stewart[3], >>> >> Michael Folkson[6], Peter Todd[9], Matt Corallo[10], >>> Brandon >>> >> Black[11], >>> >> Antoine Riard[12], Murch[13], Antoine Poinsot[15], Jo= hn >>> >> Carvalho[16] >>> >> >>> >> - Ruben Somsen, recommended by Ava Chow[1], Chris >>> Stewart[3], >>> >> Michael >>> >> Folkson[6], Antoine Riard[12], Murch[13], Antoine >>> Poinsot[15], John >>> >> Carvalho[16] >>> >> >>> >> - Jon Atack*, recommended by Luke Dashjr[2], Chris >>> Stewart[3], >>> >> /dev/fd0[5][7], >>> >> Brandon Black[11], Antoine Riard[12], Ava Chow[14], J= ohn >>> >> Carvalho[16] >>> >> >>> >> - Olaoluwa "Roasbeef" Osuntokun, recommended by Chris >>> >> Stewart[3], John >>> >> C. Vernaleo[4], /dev/fd0[5][7], Keagan McClelland[8], >>> Antoine >>> >> Riard[12], Ava Chow[14] >>> >> >>> >> - Mark "Murch" Erhardt*, recommended by Michael >>> Folkson[6], Keagan >>> >> McClelland[8], Matt Corallo[10], Brandon Black[11], A= ntoine >>> >> Riard[12], >>> >> Ava Chow[14] >>> >> >>> >> - Michael Folkson* >>> >> >>> >> Note: Luke Dashjr proposed[17] Seccour and Greg Tonos= ki for >>> >> "non-dev >>> >> triaging", Tonoski proposed himself[18] for "BIP >>> editor", and >>> >> Antoine >>> >> Riard[12] proposed Seccour for "decentralized PM". >>> >> >>> >> I searched the BIPs repo by commenter to see if any o= f >>> the above >>> >> candidates had been especially active there, which is >>> listed >>> >> below as: >>> >> total PRs they commented on (number still open/number >>> closed). >>> >> >>> >> - 21 (1/20) commenter:kanzure >>> >> - 3 (2/1) commenter:rubensomsen >>> >> - 15 (0/15) commenter:jonatack >>> >> - 18 (2/16) commenter:roasbeef >>> >> - 10 (6/4) commenter:Murchandamus >>> >> - 57 (6/51) commenter:michaelfolkson >>> >> >>> >> I'll also note that Osuntokun is the only member of t= he >>> set to >>> >> have a >>> >> merged BIP that they co-authored, although I believe >>> there are >>> >> far-along >>> >> draft BIPs for both Murch (terminology) and Somsen (S= ilent >>> >> Payments). I >>> >> don't think this should be a requirement, but I do th= ink it >>> >> demonstrates >>> >> familiarity with the process. >>> >> >>> >> Speaking only for myself, I think all of the candidat= es >>> above with >>> >> multiple recommendations from other community >>> participants are >>> >> fully >>> >> qualified for the role, so I'll only provide a detail= ed >>> >> justification >>> >> for the person who would be my first pick: Murch is n= ot >>> only a >>> >> longstanding and broadly liked Bitcoin contributor, b= ut >>> (as Corallo >>> >> mentioned) he has worked on standardizing terminology >>> through a >>> >> draft >>> >> BIP. In addition, he provided an extremely detailed >>> review of >>> >> all 300 >>> >> pages of a draft of Mastering Bitcoin (3rd edition) a= nd has >>> >> reviewed >>> >> drafts of over 200 weekly Optech newsletters, in both= cases >>> >> significantly improving the accuracy and >>> comprehensibility of the >>> >> documentation. To me, that seems very similar to the >>> work we'd >>> >> ask him >>> >> to perform as a BIPs editor and it's something that >>> he's already >>> >> doing, >>> >> so I think there's an excellent fit of person to role= . >>> >> >>> >> -Dave >>> >> >>> >> [1] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/2092f7ff-4860-47f8...@achow101.co= m/ >>> > >>> >> [2] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/9288df7b-f2e9-4106...@dashjr.org/ >>> >>> > >>> >> [3] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/d1e7183c-30e6-4f1a...@googlegroup= s.com/ > >>> >> [4] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/84309c3f-e848-d333...@netpurgator= y.com/ > >>> >> [5] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/4c1462b7-ea1c-4a36...@googlegroup= s.com/ > >>> >> [6] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/a116fba3-5948-48d2...@googlegroup= s.com/ > >>> >> [7] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/846b668f-8386-4869...@googlegroup= s.com/ > >>> >> [8] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALeFGL1-LKPWd7YRS110ut8tX=3Dwruq= gLEazRA5...@mail.gmail.com/ > >>> >> [9] >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgePPvbf...@petertodd.org/ >>> >>> >> >>> >> = > >>> >> [10] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/f9435999-42df-46b5...@mattcorallo= .com/ > >>> >> [11] >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ZgWRu32FXzqqg69V@console/ >>> >>> >> >>> >> > >>> >> [12] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CALZpt+E8DohYEJ9aO+FiF6+E...@mail= .gmail.com/ > >>> >> [13] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/53a0015c-b76a-441a...@murch.one/ >>> >>> > >>> >> [14] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ae482890-bce3-468f...@achow101.co= m/ >>> > >>> >> [15] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ppBS1tfMU3SFX85kmIBVBd0WpT5Wof_oS= BXsuizh7692AUDw2TojfvCqvcvlmsy9E69qfWMxK-UZWawf8IDApPqF7bXOH4gwU1c2jS4xojo= =3D@protonmail.com/ > >>> >> [16] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/ad284018-e99c-4552...@googlegroup= s.com/ > >>> >> [17] >>> >> >>> https://gnusha.org/pi/bitcoindev/CAMHHROw9mZJRnTbUo76PdqwJU=3D=3DY= JMvd9Qrst+...@mail.gmail.com/ > >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to t= he >>> Google >>> >> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails >>> from it, >>> >> send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> >>> >> >> >. >>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> >> >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/7b4e2223-0b96-4ca0-a4= 41-aebcfc7b0bben%40googlegroups.com >. >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> Sergi. >>> >> >>> >> -- >>> >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Go= ogle >>> >> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >>> >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from >>> it, send >>> >> an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> >>> >> >> >. >>> >> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> >> >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/CAEYHFxV_8_Jw61tysL_c= V_xiXBcRyA3e%3DCGHGuSCgm%2B-4WxT9w%40mail.gmail.com >. >>> > >>> > -- >>> > You received this message because you are subscribed to the >>> Google Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >>> > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from i= t, >>> send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> > To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/fb52ccb5-9942-4db8-b8= 80-3c06ebc47cd1%40achow101.com . >>> >>> -- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>> send an email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com >>> . >>> To view this discussion on the web visit >>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/070755a0-10e9-4903-95= 24-dd8ef98c1c8b%40achow101.com . >>> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msg= id/bitcoindev/0d4d85e3-9fbb-4bd4-af0f-92225e699b63%40achow101.com. >=20 >=20 >=20 > -- > Michael Folkson > Personal email: michaelfolkson@gmail.com --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/97a10141-8847-417a-af11-d95e7d3be064%40achow101.com.