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charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi /dev/fd0 > The last comment in the pull request suggests opening a new pull request= =20 to enable full RBF by default, referencing the one closed due to off-topic= =20 comments. I'm interested if you can propose a formal or mathematical definition of=20 what constitute an in-topic of off-topic comments on a matters like full RBF, which has=20 been controversial for like a decade. I can only think such definition could make future=20 conversations about the boundaries of what is in / off bitcoin engineering topic more objective= . > It seems that you are the one trying to politicize this issue. Let's be realistic on the state of bitcoin core security issues handling in= =20 the recent words of a group of some active contributors: "The project has historically done a poor job at publicly disclosing=20 security-critical bugs, whether externally reported or found by contributors. This has led to a situation= =20 where a lot of users perceive Bitcoin Core as never having bugs. This perception is dangerous and,=20 unfortunately, not accurate." [0]. [0] https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/Q2ZGit2wF7w Again, I'm interested if you can propose a formal or mathematical=20 definition of what constitute a reasonable bitcoin core vulnerability handling policy and that way give= =20 more ground on qualifying if a present situation is falling out of this reasonable guidelines and=20 that can be qualified more=20 objectively as "politics". I think we have a mailing list to favorize textual long format and=20 encourage a more self-reflexive mode of reasoning in the conduct of bitcoin engineering discussions. I=20 believe comments not bringing new factual information or pointing to past experiences or concrete piece= =20 of information are better left to twitter / nostr / reddit, whatever other communication channel=20 where the scientific and ethics of conversation standards are less stringent. All that said, I'm thinking to agree that the usage of all political=20 rhethoric is a fallacy better left for expressions on other communication channels and this is note wise= =20 to bundle it with novel technical information, as from the outset it does not favor to concentrate= =20 the discussion on the fact and logical reasoning themselves. Even more, political rhetoric very easily= =20 downgrade in moralistic contest among protagonists on who has the monopole of the good / truth.=20 Somehow bitcoin is beyond good and evil (-- under some long-term and abstract perspective). Best, Antoine ots hash: 3088507ecfb55ed301bb0defce9fb490daa6bb9594e96d57336d603556a8fdab Le vendredi 19 juillet 2024 =C3=A0 19:27:36 UTC+1, /dev /fd0 a =C3=A9crit : > Hi Peter, > > > I didn't get a substantive > > response from Bitcoin Core, other than Core closing the my pull-req=20 > enabling > > full-RBF by default that would fix this specific vulnerability. > > The last comment in the pull request suggests opening a new pull request= =20 > to enable full RBF by default, referencing the one closed due to off-topi= c=20 > comments.=20 > > > But read on, this is quite an odd case of Core politics, and the story= =20 > is not > > as simple as Core refusing to fix a vulnerability. > > It seems that you are the one trying to politicize this issue.=20 > > /dev/fd0 > floppy disk guy > > On Thursday, July 18, 2024 at 4:04:26=E2=80=AFPM UTC Peter Todd wrote: > >> # Summary=20 >> >> This is a public disclosure of a vulnerability that I previously=20 >> disclosed to=20 >> the bitcoin-security mailing list. It's an easy vulnerability to fix.=20 >> Although=20 >> as with other "free" relay attacks I've disclosed, I didn't get a=20 >> substantive=20 >> response from Bitcoin Core, other than Core closing the my pull-req=20 >> enabling=20 >> full-RBF by default that would fix this specific vulnerability.=20 >> >> But read on, this is quite an odd case of Core politics, and the story i= s=20 >> not=20 >> as simple as Core refusing to fix a vulnerability. Also, I've including = a=20 >> fun=20 >> homework problem at the end: figure out how TRUC/V3 transactions itself= =20 >> creates=20 >> a "free" relay attack.=20 >> >> >> # Background=20 >> >> This is just one of a few "free" relay attacks that I have recently=20 >> disclosed,=20 >> including, but not limited to:=20 >> >> "A Free-Relay Attack Exploiting RBF Rule #6" - Mar 18th 2024=20 >> https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/EJYoeNTPVhg=20 >> >> "A Free-Relay Attack Exploiting Min-Relay-Fee Differences" - Mar 31st=20 >> 2024=20 >> https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/3XqfIOYzXqo=20 >> >> The term "free relay attack" simply refers to any mechanism where=20 >> transaction=20 >> data can be broadcast at unusually low cost; the "free" in "free relay"= =20 >> is a=20 >> misnomer as all these attacks do in fact have some cost.=20 >> >> This particular attack isn't significantly different than the other=20 >> attacks=20 >> I've disclosed. With one important exception: unlike those other attacks= ,=20 >> fixing this particular attack would be quite easy, by enabling full-rbf= =20 >> by=20 >> default. So I disclosed it to the bitcoin-security mailing list as a=20 >> test: does=20 >> Bitcoin Core actually care about free relay attacks? My hypothesis is=20 >> that Core=20 >> does not, as they know full well that "free" relay is an unavoidable=20 >> problem;=20 >> I've received absolutely no feedback from any Bitcoin Core members for= =20 >> the=20 >> other disclosed attacks, beyond achow using my disclosure of the RBF Rul= e=20 >> #6=20 >> attack as an excuse to remove me from the bitcoin-security mailing list.= =20 >> >> The fact that Core doesn't actually care about "free" relay attacks is= =20 >> relevant=20 >> to TRUC/V3 Transactions. As per BIP-431:=20 >> >> "The primary problem with [RBFR proposals] is the potential for free=20 >> relay and DDoS attacks.=20 >> >> Removing Rule 3 and 4 in general would allow free relay [27]."=20 >> >> https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/812907c2b00b92ee31e2b638622a4fe14a4= 28aee/bip-0431.mediawiki#user-content-Alternatives_replace_by_feerate=20 >> >> I believe the authors of that BIP are fully aware of the fact that "free= "=20 >> relay=20 >> is an unavoidable problem, making their rational for TRUC/V3 bogus, and= =20 >> don't=20 >> want to admit that they've wasted a large amount of engineering time on = a=20 >> bad=20 >> proposal. I will be submitting a pull-req to get BIP-431 corrected, as= =20 >> the many=20 >> "free" relay attacks I've disclosed clearly show that claiming RBFR woul= d=20 >> "allow" free relay is simply not true.=20 >> >> Notably, full-RBF is _itself_ a transaction pinning fix for many=20 >> use-cases;=20 >> part of the TRUC/V3 standard is to force full-RBF behavior for V3=20 >> transactions.=20 >> So Core closing my full-RF pull-req is doubling down on TRUC/V3 in a=20 >> second=20 >> way, and TRUC/V3 proponents were the ones who tried to get the full-RBF= =20 >> option=20 >> removed from Core in the first place. If not for this dumb bit of Core= =20 >> politics, I'm sure my year-old pull-req to enable full-RBF by default=20 >> would=20 >> have been merged many months ago, as almost all hashpower has adopted=20 >> full-RBF=20 >> making objections based on "zeroconf" absurd.=20 >> >> >> # The Attack=20 >> >> If you're a competent Bitcoin engineer, familiar with how mempools work,= =20 >> you've=20 >> probably figured it out already based on the title: obviously, if a high= =20 >> percentage of miners are adopting a policy that Bitcoin Core nodes are= =20 >> not, you=20 >> can cheaply consume transaction relay bandwidth by simply relaying=20 >> transations=20 >> that miners are rejecting.=20 >> >> Specifically, do the following:=20 >> >> 1. Broadcast a small, low-fee-rate, tx A with BIP-125 opt-in disabled.= =20 >> 2. Broadcast a full-RBF double-spend of A, A2, with a higher fee-rate.= =20 >> 3. Spend the outputs of A in a large, low fee-rate, transaction B with= =20 >> BIP-125=20 >> opt-in enabled. ~100% of miners will reject B, as it spends an input not= =20 >> in=20 >> their mempools. However Bitcoin Core nodes will waste bandwidth=20 >> propagating=20 >> B.=20 >> 4. (Optional) Double-spend B repeatedly. Again, Bitcoin Core nodes will= =20 >> waste=20 >> bandwidth propagating Bn's that ~100% of miners are ignoring.=20 >> 5. Double-spend A2 to recover your funds and do it all over again (or if= =20 >> A2 had=20 >> a high enough fee-rate, just wait for it to be mined).=20 >> >> The cost to relay each B transaction depends on the fee-rate of B. Since= =20 >> Bitcoin Core defaults to a fairly large mempool, the minimum relay=20 >> fee-rate is=20 >> typically well below the economic fee-rate required for miners to=20 >> actually mine=20 >> a transaction; Core accepts transactions that are uneconomical for miner= s=20 >> to=20 >> mine for the forseeable future.=20 >> >> For example, at the moment typical mempools require transactions to pay= =20 >> at=20 >> least 1sat/vB, while there are hundreds of MvB worth of transactions=20 >> paying=20 >> 4sat/vB, the minimum economical fee-rate. Thus, transactions paying less= =20 >> than=20 >> 4sat/VB are extremely unlikely to get mined in the nearish future.=20 >> >> Concretely, broadcasting B transactions at 1sat/vB, 2sat/vB, and 3sat/vB= =20 >> would=20 >> have almost zero cost as the probability of those transactions getting= =20 >> mined is=20 >> nearly zero. This is true _regardless_ of what % of miners are mining=20 >> full-RBF!=20 >> As long as you can get at least one miner to mine the A double-spend, th= e=20 >> attack only costs what it cost to get A mined.=20 >> >> If B's are broadcast at a higher fee-rate than the minimum economical=20 >> fee-rate,=20 >> then the % of full-RBF miners matters. For example, if only 99% of miner= s=20 >> mine=20 >> full-RBF, the chance of a B transaction getting mined per block is about= =20 >> 1%, so=20 >> the amortized cost of broadcasting B is about 1% of whatever total fee= =20 >> the=20 >> highest fee-rate variant of B pays.=20 >> >> For an attacker who does not need any B to be broadcast, the cost saving= s=20 >> to=20 >> use of relay bandwidth is approximately the ratio of the difference in= =20 >> size=20 >> between B and and A. With a maximum standard transaction size of 100KvB,= =20 >> or=20 >> 400KB serialized size, this ratio is on the order of 5000:1, times the= =20 >> total=20 >> number of B variants broadcast, and the % chance of each B being mined;= =20 >> it's a=20 >> few orders of magnitude.=20 >> >> Of course, as mentioned above, this is just one of *many* "free" relay= =20 >> attacks,=20 >> so fixing this particular issue doesn't change much.=20 >> >> >> # Attackers Who Benefit From B Getting Mined=20 >> >> Some attackers actually need B to get mined. For example, imagine an=20 >> exchange=20 >> who needs to do large consolidation transactions. They could use this=20 >> attack=20 >> (and some attacks like it) as a way to goad users and miners into mining= =20 >> consolidation transactions for them at low cost. In this variant of the= =20 >> attack,=20 >> the attacker would pad the size of B with consolidation spends that they= =20 >> needed=20 >> to do anyway. Someone who tried to stop the attack by getting B mined (e= g=20 >> via=20 >> mempool.space's transaction accellerator) would simply be paying the=20 >> attacker's=20 >> fees for them.=20 >> >> Obviously, this strategy is only relevant for B's below the economic=20 >> fee-rate.=20 >> However, the weaker version of this strategy is to parallize the attack,= =20 >> and do=20 >> your consolidation with the _A_ double-spends to reduce the # of bytes= =20 >> used per=20 >> full-rbf double-spend.=20 >> >> >> # TRUC/V3 Creates a Free Relay Attack=20 >> >> I'll leave the details of this as a homework problem. But obviously, the= =20 >> introduction of TRUC/V3 transactions *itself* creates a free relay attac= k=20 >> very=20 >> similar to the above! Just like full-RBF, not all miners will mine V3=20 >> transactions. So you can do the exact same type of attack by taking=20 >> advantage=20 >> of this difference in mining policy.=20 >> >> --=20 >> https://petertodd.org 'peter'[:-1]@petertodd.org=20 >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion on the web visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/= bitcoindev/9c4c2a65-2c87-47f1-85d1-137c32099fb7n%40googlegroups.com. ------=_Part_278079_2093069652.1721433412057 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi /dev/fd0<br /><br />> The last comment in the pull request suggests o= pening a new pull request to enable full RBF by default, referencing the on= e closed due to off-topic comments.<br /><br />I'm interested if you can pr= opose a formal or mathematical definition of what constitute<br />an in-top= ic of off-topic comments on a matters like full RBF, which has been controv= ersial<br />for like a decade. I can only think such definition could make = future conversations about<br />the boundaries of what is in / off bitcoin = engineering topic more objective.<br /><br />> It seems that you are the= one trying to politicize this issue.<br /><br />Let's be realistic on the = state of bitcoin core security issues handling in the recent words of<br />= a group of some active contributors:<br /><br />"The project has historical= ly done a poor job at publicly disclosing security-critical bugs, whether<b= r />externally reported or found by contributors. This has led to a situati= on where a lot of users perceive<br />Bitcoin Core as never having bugs. Th= is perception is dangerous and, unfortunately, not accurate." [0].<br /><br= />[0] https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/Q2ZGit2wF7w<br /><br />Agai= n, I'm interested if you can propose a formal or mathematical definition of= what constitute<br />a reasonable bitcoin core vulnerability handling poli= cy and that way give more ground on qualifying<br />if a present situation = is falling out of this reasonable guidelines and that can be qualified more= <br />objectively as "politics".<br /><br />I think we have a mailing list= to favorize textual long format and encourage a more self-reflexive<br />m= ode of reasoning in the conduct of bitcoin engineering discussions. I belie= ve comments not bringing<br />new factual information or pointing to past e= xperiences or concrete piece of information are better<br />left to twitter= / nostr / reddit, whatever other communication channel where the scientifi= c and<br />ethics of conversation standards are less stringent.<br /><br />= All that said, I'm thinking to agree that the usage of all political rhetho= ric is a fallacy better<br />left for expressions on other communication ch= annels and this is note wise to bundle it with novel<br />technical informa= tion, as from the outset it does not favor to concentrate the discussion on= the fact<br />and logical reasoning themselves. Even more, political rheto= ric very easily downgrade in moralistic<br />contest among protagonists on = who has the monopole of the good / truth. Somehow bitcoin is beyond<br />go= od and evil (-- under some long-term and abstract perspective).<br /><br />= Best,<br />Antoine<br />ots hash: 3088507ecfb55ed301bb0defce9fb490daa6bb959= 4e96d57336d603556a8fdab<br /><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" c= lass=3D"gmail_attr">Le vendredi 19 juillet 2024 =C3=A0 19:27:36 UTC+1, /dev= /fd0 a =C3=A9crit=C2=A0:<br/></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style= =3D"margin: 0 0 0 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding= -left: 1ex;">Hi Peter,<br><br>>=C2=A0I didn't get a substantive<br>&= gt; response from Bitcoin Core, other than Core closing the my pull-req ena= bling<br>> full-RBF by default that would fix this specific vulnerabilit= y.<br><br> The last comment in the pull request suggests opening a new pull request to= enable full RBF by default, referencing the one closed due to off-topic co= mments. <div><br></div><div>>=C2=A0But read on, this is quite an odd case of Cor= e politics, and the story is not<br>> as simple as Core refusing to fix = a vulnerability.</div><div><br></div><div> It seems that you are the one trying to politicize this issue. </div><div><br></div><div>/dev/fd0</div><div>floppy disk guy<br><br></div><= div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"auto" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Thursda= y, July 18, 2024 at 4:04:26=E2=80=AFPM UTC Peter Todd wrote:<br></div><bloc= kquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"margin:0 0 0 0.8ex;border-left:1px so= lid rgb(204,204,204);padding-left:1ex"># Summary <br> <br>This is a public disclosure of a vulnerability that I previously disclo= sed to <br>the bitcoin-security mailing list. It's an easy vulnerability to fi= x. Although <br>as with other "free" relay attacks I've disclosed, I didn= 't get a substantive <br>response from Bitcoin Core, other than Core closing the my pull-req ena= bling <br>full-RBF by default that would fix this specific vulnerability. <br> <br>But read on, this is quite an odd case of Core politics, and the story = is not <br>as simple as Core refusing to fix a vulnerability. Also, I've inclu= ding a fun <br>homework problem at the end: figure out how TRUC/V3 transactions itself= creates <br>a "free" relay attack. <br> <br> <br># Background <br> <br>This is just one of a few "free" relay attacks that I have re= cently disclosed, <br>including, but not limited to: <br> <br> "A Free-Relay Attack Exploiting RBF Rule #6" - Mar 18th 2= 024 <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/EJYoeNTPVhg" re= l=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google= .com/url?hl=3Dfr&q=3Dhttps://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/EJYoeNTPV= hg&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D1721519733686000&usg=3DAOvVaw1JWK1zwQNT= _aXhRWKMfLVp">https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/EJYoeNTPVhg</a> <br> <br> "A Free-Relay Attack Exploiting Min-Relay-Fee Differences"= ; - Mar 31st 2024 <br> <a href=3D"https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/3XqfIOYzXqo" re= l=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google= .com/url?hl=3Dfr&q=3Dhttps://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/3XqfIOYzX= qo&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D1721519733686000&usg=3DAOvVaw2vw2Qd9rA4= gYYajaUPKHoQ">https://groups.google.com/g/bitcoindev/c/3XqfIOYzXqo</a> <br> <br>The term "free relay attack" simply refers to any mechanism w= here transaction <br>data can be broadcast at unusually low cost; the "free" in &q= uot;free relay" is a <br>misnomer as all these attacks do in fact have some cost. <br> <br>This particular attack isn't significantly different than the other= attacks <br>I've disclosed. With one important exception: unlike those other at= tacks, <br>fixing this particular attack would be quite easy, by enabling full-rbf= by <br>default. So I disclosed it to the bitcoin-security mailing list as a te= st: does <br>Bitcoin Core actually care about free relay attacks? My hypothesis is t= hat Core <br>does not, as they know full well that "free" relay is an unav= oidable problem; <br>I've received absolutely no feedback from any Bitcoin Core members = for the <br>other disclosed attacks, beyond achow using my disclosure of the RBF Ru= le #6 <br>attack as an excuse to remove me from the bitcoin-security mailing list= . <br> <br>The fact that Core doesn't actually care about "free" rel= ay attacks is relevant <br>to TRUC/V3 Transactions. As per BIP-431: <br> <br> "The primary problem with [RBFR proposals] is the potential fo= r free relay and DDoS attacks. <br> <br> Removing Rule 3 and 4 in general would allow free relay [27]." <br> <a href=3D"https://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob/812907c2b00b92ee31e= 2b638622a4fe14a428aee/bip-0431.mediawiki#user-content-Alternatives_replace_= by_feerate" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" data-saferedirecturl=3D"http= s://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&q=3Dhttps://github.com/bitcoin/bips/blob= /812907c2b00b92ee31e2b638622a4fe14a428aee/bip-0431.mediawiki%23user-content= -Alternatives_replace_by_feerate&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D1721519733686= 000&usg=3DAOvVaw1tx5cfYn8zpwIjDSfRR5M8">https://github.com/bitcoin/bips= /blob/812907c2b00b92ee31e2b638622a4fe14a428aee/bip-0431.mediawiki#user-cont= ent-Alternatives_replace_by_feerate</a> <br> <br>I believe the authors of that BIP are fully aware of the fact that &quo= t;free" relay <br>is an unavoidable problem, making their rational for TRUC/V3 bogus, and= don't <br>want to admit that they've wasted a large amount of engineering tim= e on a bad <br>proposal. I will be submitting a pull-req to get BIP-431 corrected, as = the many <br>"free" relay attacks I've disclosed clearly show that cla= iming RBFR would <br>"allow" free relay is simply not true. <br> <br>Notably, full-RBF is _itself_ a transaction pinning fix for many use-ca= ses; <br>part of the TRUC/V3 standard is to force full-RBF behavior for V3 trans= actions. <br>So Core closing my full-RF pull-req is doubling down on TRUC/V3 in a se= cond <br>way, and TRUC/V3 proponents were the ones who tried to get the full-RBF= option <br>removed from Core in the first place. If not for this dumb bit of Core <br>politics, I'm sure my year-old pull-req to enable full-RBF by defau= lt would <br>have been merged many months ago, as almost all hashpower has adopted f= ull-RBF <br>making objections based on "zeroconf" absurd. <br> <br> <br># The Attack <br> <br>If you're a competent Bitcoin engineer, familiar with how mempools = work, you've <br>probably figured it out already based on the title: obviously, if a hig= h <br>percentage of miners are adopting a policy that Bitcoin Core nodes are = not, you <br>can cheaply consume transaction relay bandwidth by simply relaying tran= sations <br>that miners are rejecting. <br> <br>Specifically, do the following: <br> <br>1. Broadcast a small, low-fee-rate, tx A with BIP-125 opt-in disabled. <br>2. Broadcast a full-RBF double-spend of A, A2, with a higher fee-rate. <br>3. Spend the outputs of A in a large, low fee-rate, transaction B with = BIP-125 <br> opt-in enabled. ~100% of miners will reject B, as it spends an input= not in <br> their mempools. However Bitcoin Core nodes will waste bandwidth prop= agating <br> B. <br>4. (Optional) Double-spend B repeatedly. Again, Bitcoin Core nodes will= waste <br> bandwidth propagating Bn's that ~100% of miners are ignoring. <br>5. Double-spend A2 to recover your funds and do it all over again (or i= f A2 had <br> a high enough fee-rate, just wait for it to be mined). <br> <br>The cost to relay each B transaction depends on the fee-rate of B. Sinc= e <br>Bitcoin Core defaults to a fairly large mempool, the minimum relay fee-= rate is <br>typically well below the economic fee-rate required for miners to actua= lly mine <br>a transaction; Core accepts transactions that are uneconomical for mine= rs to <br>mine for the forseeable future. <br> <br>For example, at the moment typical mempools require transactions to pay= at <br>least 1sat/vB, while there are hundreds of MvB worth of transactions pa= ying <br>4sat/vB, the minimum economical fee-rate. Thus, transactions paying les= s than <br>4sat/VB are extremely unlikely to get mined in the nearish future. <br> <br>Concretely, broadcasting B transactions at 1sat/vB, 2sat/vB, and 3sat/v= B would <br>have almost zero cost as the probability of those transactions getting = mined is <br>nearly zero. This is true _regardless_ of what % of miners are mining f= ull-RBF! <br>As long as you can get at least one miner to mine the A double-spend, t= he <br>attack only costs what it cost to get A mined. <br> <br>If B's are broadcast at a higher fee-rate than the minimum economic= al fee-rate, <br>then the % of full-RBF miners matters. For example, if only 99% of mine= rs mine <br>full-RBF, the chance of a B transaction getting mined per block is abou= t 1%, so <br>the amortized cost of broadcasting B is about 1% of whatever total fee = the <br>highest fee-rate variant of B pays. <br> <br>For an attacker who does not need any B to be broadcast, the cost savin= gs to <br>use of relay bandwidth is approximately the ratio of the difference in = size <br>between B and and A. With a maximum standard transaction size of 100KvB= , or <br>400KB serialized size, this ratio is on the order of 5000:1, times the = total <br>number of B variants broadcast, and the % chance of each B being mined;= it's a <br>few orders of magnitude. <br> <br>Of course, as mentioned above, this is just one of *many* "free&qu= ot; relay attacks, <br>so fixing this particular issue doesn't change much. <br> <br> <br># Attackers Who Benefit From B Getting Mined <br> <br>Some attackers actually need B to get mined. For example, imagine an ex= change <br>who needs to do large consolidation transactions. They could use this a= ttack <br>(and some attacks like it) as a way to goad users and miners into minin= g <br>consolidation transactions for them at low cost. In this variant of the= attack, <br>the attacker would pad the size of B with consolidation spends that the= y needed <br>to do anyway. Someone who tried to stop the attack by getting B mined (= eg via <br><a href=3D"http://mempool.space" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" dat= a-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&q=3Dhttp://memp= ool.space&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D1721519733686000&usg=3DAOvVaw1bI= 3qp0BlvuT04MBTGkzgR">mempool.space</a>'s transaction accellerator) woul= d simply be paying the attacker's <br>fees for them. <br> <br>Obviously, this strategy is only relevant for B's below the economi= c fee-rate. <br>However, the weaker version of this strategy is to parallize the attack= , and do <br>your consolidation with the _A_ double-spends to reduce the # of bytes = used per <br>full-rbf double-spend. <br> <br> <br># TRUC/V3 Creates a Free Relay Attack <br> <br>I'll leave the details of this as a homework problem. But obviously= , the <br>introduction of TRUC/V3 transactions *itself* creates a free relay atta= ck very <br>similar to the above! Just like full-RBF, not all miners will mine V3 <br>transactions. So you can do the exact same type of attack by taking adv= antage <br>of this difference in mining policy. <br> <br>--=20 <br><a href=3D"https://petertodd.org" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" da= ta-saferedirecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&q=3Dhttps://pe= tertodd.org&source=3Dgmail&ust=3D1721519733686000&usg=3DAOvVaw3= SiNGxs3N4NRh9AizL-oLu">https://petertodd.org</a> 'peter'[:-1]@<a hr= ef=3D"http://petertodd.org" rel=3D"nofollow" target=3D"_blank" data-safered= irecturl=3D"https://www.google.com/url?hl=3Dfr&q=3Dhttp://petertodd.org= &source=3Dgmail&ust=3D1721519733686000&usg=3DAOvVaw1TCiAKw5MRpR= pgpbaLIm1j">petertodd.org</a> <br></blockquote></div></blockquote></div> <p></p> -- <br /> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups &= quot;Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group.<br /> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com">bitcoind= ev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com</a>.<br /> To view this discussion on the web visit <a href=3D"https://groups.google.c= om/d/msgid/bitcoindev/9c4c2a65-2c87-47f1-85d1-137c32099fb7n%40googlegroups.= com?utm_medium=3Demail&utm_source=3Dfooter">https://groups.google.com/d/msg= id/bitcoindev/9c4c2a65-2c87-47f1-85d1-137c32099fb7n%40googlegroups.com</a>.= <br /> ------=_Part_278079_2093069652.1721433412057-- ------=_Part_278078_1820075485.1721433412057--