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[2003:dd:6712:6418:1d2:360e:ce63:5895]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id z17sm7812712wru.21.2019.06.30.12.55.41 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 30 Jun 2019 12:55:41 -0700 (PDT) From: Tamas Blummer Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_49C566EF-D133-4AE0-B8E0-1935EFE0B666"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 21:55:41 +0200 In-Reply-To: <3F46CDD5-DA80-49C8-A51F-8066680EF347@voskuil.org> To: Eric Voskuil References: <0DBC0DEA-C999-4AEE-B2E1-D5337ECD9405@gmail.com> <7A10C0F5-E206-43C1-853F-64AE04F57711@voskuil.org> <708D14A9-D25E-4DD2-8B6E-39A1194A7A00@voskuil.org> <1A808C88-63FD-4F45-8C95-2B8B4D99EDF5@gmail.com> <83705370-79FC-4006-BA04-4782AD5BE70B@voskuil.org> <3F46CDD5-DA80-49C8-A51F-8066680EF347@voskuil.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 01 Jul 2019 09:46:03 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable riskless or risky lending, prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 19:55:44 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_49C566EF-D133-4AE0-B8E0-1935EFE0B666 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jun 30, 2019, at 20:54, Eric Voskuil wrote: >=20 > Could you please explain the meaning and utility of =E2=80=9Cunforgeable= register=E2=80=9D as it pertains to such encumbered coins? I guess we agree that some way of keeping track of ownership is = prerequisite for something to aquire value. We likely also agree that the security of that ownership register has = great influence to the value. The question remains if a register as utility in itself gives value to = the thing needed to use that register. I think it does, if people are interested in what it keeps track of, for = whatever reason, even for reasons you find bogus. It was not intentional, but I think I just explained why Ethereum = aquired higher market value by being register of ICO tokens. Now back to the coins encumbered with the debt covenant: Transactions moving them constitute a register of covered debt and you = need them to update that register. Should some people find such a register useful then those coins needed = to update this register will aquire value. Does not matter if you think the concept of covered debt is just as = bogus as ICOs. Here some good news: If they aquire value then they offer a way to = generate income for hodler by temporarily giving up control. Tamas Blummer >=20 > The meaning in terms of Bitcoin is clear - the =E2=80=9Cowner=E2=80=9D = of outputs that represent value (i.e. in the ability to trade them for = something else) is recorded publicly and, given Bitcoin security = assumptions, cannot be faked. What is not clear is the utility of a = record of outputs that cannot be traded for something else. You seem to = imply that a record is valuable simply because it=E2=80=99s a record. >=20 > e >=20 >> On Jun 30, 2019, at 11:35, Tamas Blummer = wrote: >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 19:41, Eric Voskuil wrote: >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 03:56, Tamas Blummer = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Hi Eric, >>>>=20 >>>>> On Jun 29, 2019, at 23:21, Eric Voskuil wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> What loan? Alice has paid Bob for something of no possible utility = to her, or anyone else. >>>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>> Coins encumbered with the described covenant represent temporary = control of a scarce resource. >>>>=20 >>>> Can this obtain value? That depends on the availability of final = control and ability to deal with temporary control. >>>=20 >>> For something to become property (and therefore have marketable = value) requires that it be both scarce and useful. Bitcoin is useful = only to the extent that it can be traded for something else that is = useful. Above you are only dealing with scarcity, ignoring utility. >>=20 >> There is a deeper utility of Bitcoin than it can be traded for = something else. That utility is to use its unforgeable register. >> We have only one kind of units in this register and by having = covenants we would create other kinds that are while encumbered not = fungible with the common ones. >>=20 >> Units are certainly less desirable if encumbered with a debt = covenant. You say no one would assign them any value. >>=20 >> I am not that sure as they still offer the utility of using the = unforgeable register, in this case a register of debt covered by = reserves. >> You also doubt forcing debt to be covered by reserves is a good idea, = I got that, but suppose we do not discuss this here. >> If there are people who think it is a good idea, then they would find = having an unforgeable register of it useful and therefore units needed = to maintain that register valuable to some extent. >>=20 >>>=20 >>>> I think you do not show the neccesary respect of the market. >>>=20 >>> I=E2=80=99m not sure what is meant here by respect, or how much of = it is necessary. I am merely explaining the market. >>>=20 >>=20 >> You are not explaining an existing market but claim that market that = is not yet there will follow your arguments. >>=20 >>>> Your rant reminds me of renowed economists who still argue final = control Bitcoin can not have value, you do the same proclaiming that = temporary control of Bitcoin can not have value. >>>=20 >>> It seems to me you have reversed the meaning of temporary and final. = Bitcoin is useful because of the presumption that there is no finality = of control. One presumes an ability to trade control of it for something = else. This is temporary control. Final control would be the case in = which, at some point, it can no longer be traded, making it worthless at = that point. If this is known to be the case it implies that it it = worthless at all prior points as well. >>>=20 >>> These are distinct scenarios. The fact that temporary (in my usage) = control implies the possibility of value does not imply that finality of = control does as well. The fact that (renowned or otherwise) people have = made errors does not imply that I am making an error. These are both = non-sequiturs. >>>=20 >>>> I say, that temporary control does not have value until means = dealing with it are offered, and that is I work on. Thereafter might = obtain value if final control is deemed too expensive or not attainable, = we shall see. >>>=20 >>> The analogy to rental of a consumable good does not apply to the = case of a non-consumable good. If it cannot be traded and cannot be = consumed it cannot obtain marketable value. To this point it matters not = whether it exists. >>>=20 >>=20 >> I meant with control the control of entries in the register which I = think is the deeper utility of Bitcoin. Final control is meant to be the = opposite of temporary which is the time limited control with some = expiry. >>=20 >> Thank you for your thoughts as they help to sharpen my arguments. >>=20 >> Best, >>=20 >> Tamas Blummer >>=20 >>> Best, >>> Eric >>>=20 >>>> Tamas Blummer >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_49C566EF-D133-4AE0-B8E0-1935EFE0B666 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEE6YNJViYMM6Iv5f9e9nKRxRdxORwFAl0ZE70ACgkQ9nKRxRdx ORyBnAf/bYP0JBmSabStYlUIlSjGwKqK7dBB6ZjyMx7vMn1csdfifwn32iGARG4C zH7JnfFCeZNvzo8bcK4phbI+b+30y2q2TUxX/47ly6ir6gNnCmypwqKZ7+uSCqcM 02Qw6LutO19Fr0fTZRYd74H/ySxWhOtaOHvOIV/h/RgxW20My0ur5vqafsQbZoNt JK8RirYFF589rDHGi99mZ3gzC2ML4bXqvlJMNaPWCzDJpKdySb4RpHhJIYv1bINM Xw01rlItufryNE7byQPv0Ilyki2Kbpxb7DzSGjpMOVoLQkCjtBOZhR7tTiuEUirI VVW7Cvcvj7Fp0RQZjNjgDEDFZHNW3g== =XH4e -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_49C566EF-D133-4AE0-B8E0-1935EFE0B666--