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[2003:dd:6712:6425:69ab:198d:dd49:c683]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id x17sm8764072wrq.64.2019.07.01.22.08.48 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Mon, 01 Jul 2019 22:08:49 -0700 (PDT) From: Tamas Blummer Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_C3D4EEED-8935-4ACC-8A34-31B704673CB0"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Tue, 2 Jul 2019 07:08:53 +0200 In-Reply-To: To: Eric Voskuil References: <0DBC0DEA-C999-4AEE-B2E1-D5337ECD9405@gmail.com> <7A10C0F5-E206-43C1-853F-64AE04F57711@voskuil.org> <708D14A9-D25E-4DD2-8B6E-39A1194A7A00@voskuil.org> <1A808C88-63FD-4F45-8C95-2B8B4D99EDF5@gmail.com> <83705370-79FC-4006-BA04-4782AD5BE70B@voskuil.org> <3F46CDD5-DA80-49C8-A51F-8066680EF347@voskuil.org> <063D7C06-F5D8-425B-80CE-CAE03A1AAD0C@voskuil.org> <0AA10217-E1CC-46D1-9B43-038CEEF942CD@gmail.com> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 08:59:10 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable riskless or risky lending, prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 02 Jul 2019 05:08:53 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_C3D4EEED-8935-4ACC-8A34-31B704673CB0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jul 1, 2019, at 20:52, Eric Voskuil wrote: >=20 > I said that I would make no further comment given the belief that no = new ideas were surfacing. However, after giving it some more thought on = my own, I believe I have found the one case in which a person could = value such encumbered coins. >=20 > In the case of tracking an asset that becomes worthless at a specific = time, one could value a record of ownership, and the ability to trade = ownership of the asset during the period. Consider colored coin type = tracking of a theater ticket for a specific show, where the ticket is = worthless by the end of the show. >=20 In other words you now see the utility of a register offered by UTXOs = that are only temporary availability to current owner. If there is a = utility there is also a value in it for them. I am glad we are on the same side on this utility and thanks to you and = ZmnSCPxj we now have two additional uses cases for UTXOs that are only = temporarily accessible to their current owner. Since ZmnSCPxj also raised the question if covenants are needed at all, = let me continue my thoughts on this in reply to his mail. Tamas Blummer >=20 >=20 >> On Jun 30, 2019, at 13:26, Tamas Blummer = wrote: >>=20 >> My argument does not need the comparison with ICOs. >>=20 >> They were just an example that people pay for the utility of register = even though others think the tokens they keep track of are worthless. >>=20 >> Tamas Blummer >>=20 >>=20 >>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 22:13, Eric Voskuil wrote: >>>=20 >>> ICO tokens can be traded (indefinitely) for other things of value, = so the comparison isn=E2=80=99t valid. I think we=E2=80=99ve both made = our points clearly, so I=E2=80=99ll leave it at that. >>>=20 >>> Best, >>> Eric >>>=20 >>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 12:55, Tamas Blummer = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 20:54, Eric Voskuil wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> Could you please explain the meaning and utility of =E2=80=9Cunforge= able register=E2=80=9D as it pertains to such encumbered coins? >>>>=20 >>>> I guess we agree that some way of keeping track of ownership is = prerequisite for something to aquire value. >>>> We likely also agree that the security of that ownership register = has great influence to the value. >>>>=20 >>>> The question remains if a register as utility in itself gives value = to the thing needed to use that register. >>>> I think it does, if people are interested in what it keeps track = of, for whatever reason, even for reasons you find bogus. >>>>=20 >>>> It was not intentional, but I think I just explained why Ethereum = aquired higher market value by being register of ICO tokens. >>>>=20 >>>> Now back to the coins encumbered with the debt covenant: >>>> Transactions moving them constitute a register of covered debt and = you need them to update that register. >>>> Should some people find such a register useful then those coins = needed to update this register will aquire value. >>>> Does not matter if you think the concept of covered debt is just as = bogus as ICOs. >>>>=20 >>>> Here some good news: If they aquire value then they offer a way to = generate income for hodler by temporarily giving up control. >>>>=20 >>>> Tamas Blummer >>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> The meaning in terms of Bitcoin is clear - the =E2=80=9Cowner=E2=80=9D= of outputs that represent value (i.e. in the ability to trade them for = something else) is recorded publicly and, given Bitcoin security = assumptions, cannot be faked. What is not clear is the utility of a = record of outputs that cannot be traded for something else. You seem to = imply that a record is valuable simply because it=E2=80=99s a record. >>>>>=20 >>>>> e >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 11:35, Tamas Blummer = wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 19:41, Eric Voskuil = wrote: >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> On Jun 30, 2019, at 03:56, Tamas Blummer = wrote: >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Hi Eric, >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> On Jun 29, 2019, at 23:21, Eric Voskuil = wrote: >>>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>>> What loan? Alice has paid Bob for something of no possible = utility to her, or anyone else. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Coins encumbered with the described covenant represent = temporary control of a scarce resource. >>>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Can this obtain value? That depends on the availability of = final control and ability to deal with temporary control. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> For something to become property (and therefore have marketable = value) requires that it be both scarce and useful. Bitcoin is useful = only to the extent that it can be traded for something else that is = useful. Above you are only dealing with scarcity, ignoring utility. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> There is a deeper utility of Bitcoin than it can be traded for = something else. That utility is to use its unforgeable register. >>>>>> We have only one kind of units in this register and by having = covenants we would create other kinds that are while encumbered not = fungible with the common ones. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Units are certainly less desirable if encumbered with a debt = covenant. You say no one would assign them any value. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I am not that sure as they still offer the utility of using the = unforgeable register, in this case a register of debt covered by = reserves. >>>>>> You also doubt forcing debt to be covered by reserves is a good = idea, I got that, but suppose we do not discuss this here. >>>>>> If there are people who think it is a good idea, then they would = find having an unforgeable register of it useful and therefore units = needed to maintain that register valuable to some extent. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I think you do not show the neccesary respect of the market. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> I=E2=80=99m not sure what is meant here by respect, or how much = of it is necessary. I am merely explaining the market. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> You are not explaining an existing market but claim that market = that is not yet there will follow your arguments. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Your rant reminds me of renowed economists who still argue = final control Bitcoin can not have value, you do the same proclaiming = that temporary control of Bitcoin can not have value. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> It seems to me you have reversed the meaning of temporary and = final. Bitcoin is useful because of the presumption that there is no = finality of control. One presumes an ability to trade control of it for = something else. This is temporary control. Final control would be the = case in which, at some point, it can no longer be traded, making it = worthless at that point. If this is known to be the case it implies that = it it worthless at all prior points as well. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> These are distinct scenarios. The fact that temporary (in my = usage) control implies the possibility of value does not imply that = finality of control does as well. The fact that (renowned or otherwise) = people have made errors does not imply that I am making an error. These = are both non-sequiturs. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> I say, that temporary control does not have value until means = dealing with it are offered, and that is I work on. Thereafter might = obtain value if final control is deemed too expensive or not attainable, = we shall see. >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> The analogy to rental of a consumable good does not apply to the = case of a non-consumable good. If it cannot be traded and cannot be = consumed it cannot obtain marketable value. To this point it matters not = whether it exists. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> I meant with control the control of entries in the register which = I think is the deeper utility of Bitcoin. Final control is meant to be = the opposite of temporary which is the time limited control with some = expiry. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Thank you for your thoughts as they help to sharpen my arguments. >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Best, >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> Tamas Blummer >>>>>>=20 >>>>>>> Best, >>>>>>> Eric >>>>>>>=20 >>>>>>>> Tamas Blummer >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_C3D4EEED-8935-4ACC-8A34-31B704673CB0 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEE6YNJViYMM6Iv5f9e9nKRxRdxORwFAl0a5uUACgkQ9nKRxRdx ORx1EAgAiWDRig/I4Q9GoDufMyKJV1RaW/NvGNcwbuJ4Swt1duIinXTmuepH4x8U rcaRTje8cuvFtFE//GFKaADbuXBoF0PaAZnfqwZ8fao0ZWzEGc65jnpw0D1FjIOK iPjjAo4odQvoDvPxkJMFwGT9PiSL5nnCTS0h5rh9Qp04am5QXZyNQoLPQmccoaJf 9ht0cgLwaRTHsItvh3LAn56wE8BTnsFxwA5fkUwt3tTfwNLFaa/lL3fgsQuvkHFD GRI/CXAm66IiW4IAakw0CJL8Y36Ge2ApojaGHC7khncQnEDVkO4tu02Ptx4WXjnS MUes1M9zlcMGBCC+KdRIiu0cMMlpmg== =CO+H -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_C3D4EEED-8935-4ACC-8A34-31B704673CB0--