From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 6FF1C901 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 23:20:10 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-pg1-f194.google.com (mail-pg1-f194.google.com [209.85.215.194]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 33E3A102 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 23:20:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-pg1-f194.google.com with SMTP id r1-v6so6747211pgp.11 for ; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 16:20:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=voskuil-org.20150623.gappssmtp.com; s=20150623; h=mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=OQ4l4HyuaR11M0goJ3PfjdfYSHi1Rdrwl7z4MgfxD94=; b=hxQmrlbxDXr7Nfj8lBE6d0EwAAMHSV6nDhSChiAvE3TSqjeNr/h6GuxYPYSsjZsUDv d0kvHvHWtuUG7PLKP43zV+SbQirXHl82GS8LtL3cu5f12ev/LsqeNLbpcAO3iIHr8WNj NqLA0HtVmctbELei4BO5PPIj7MaapUZFFcLs0ku7BNQq5Hqhe/cURfsQOKl1oDKHiz2j EkT5wJHjrvOjlEEc4g+nGzlQKYEP1lPV0+0OdL6kgrOouxScJjoZ69nY5PmXLJ0HC+sN KQ4aqW4z3rt947MBqgdMVPrh9jNCjDcFp1Q7HgRVmJ7VVq5+gKvwhYMzwlEV6gKdxfBz XMDA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:subject:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:references:to; bh=OQ4l4HyuaR11M0goJ3PfjdfYSHi1Rdrwl7z4MgfxD94=; b=BRdnz69/DefFjs+PSWpqWtiPWM/3b30Axc+xQgttxn/MnDzAJwagDgSae1udfC47aA qg2RLsysqg1eLC7MYY3cmbYS2KjnAEpUXSjV9TORZG8UYMWwp09U+GcB+stBRyhdI6l0 hDvdEeWvyyx5ZvDVHKnYgfyQco3oXg68JkSPzB1NDTotnepn4uz+md+JUeSB5rp3ybVf 3JwnYj/0DpwPuexozxwjMnyQD2/8W+qnjsqIDEfZ1VZx+6c01EtroH7QsRWuT9XpCGgf Do+vEHjRbCmEgRWvYwnUE5gmSAo7mNnXm6lg7Wg1evHOdVlLpGp3NXz0TGFOLu62yX6e /CqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: APzg51CIT3qqLVkW/EyOWZ2O1Qs4yvYwpgyBgs6WgzYLQCQYO6dNvKZl etTO7kwKTKhUOhY/xPXzBl0BvA== X-Google-Smtp-Source: ANB0VdZhIC0nV2aYeDzlOVyJrn2cWxbguWcNzxkdQolGqqBnWCQl7Zis/IVWZvCfveCsYKWlOSkbJA== X-Received: by 2002:a62:20f:: with SMTP id 15-v6mr23454927pfc.100.1537140007632; Sun, 16 Sep 2018 16:20:07 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.40.177] (h-66-167-53-79.sttn.wa.globalcapacity.com. [66.167.53.79]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id k4-v6sm20720064pfj.30.2018.09.16.16.20.06 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 16 Sep 2018 16:20:06 -0700 (PDT) Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-29BE0082-6063-4EF7-B183-46794C05D2B5 Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) From: Eric Voskuil X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (15G77) In-Reply-To: Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 16:20:05 -0700 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: References: To: Damian Williamson , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.9 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, HTML_MESSAGE, MIME_QP_LONG_LINE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 23:52:10 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Selfish Mining Prevention X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2018 23:20:10 -0000 --Apple-Mail-29BE0082-6063-4EF7-B183-46794C05D2B5 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hash rate cannot get =E2=80=9Cmore uneconomical=E2=80=9D. Mining will always= seek a return equal to the cost of capital, as does all production, and the= energy expended will always be fundamentally a function of the fee level an= d energy price. Fee level is determined by variable demand for a fixed suppl= y of confirmation. When you say greed you are simply referring to economically-rational behavio= r. It canny be eliminated, nor would that be a benefit. WRT energy consumption, there is nothing that can be done to reduce it excep= t for people to stop using Bitcoin or for energy to get more expensive. e > On Sep 15, 2018, at 15:45, Damian Williamson via bitcoin-dev wrote: >=20 > I see what you say, however, since the proposal as I have read it says "An= d this will keep happening as long as hashrate keeps rising," - what actuall= y happens in the case hashrate stagnates or falls? >=20 > I would prefer to see (not only with your proposal) greater bias toward ha= shrate being exponentially more uneconomical the more it rises to stifle gre= ed. The current level of mining already greatly exceeds that necessary for t= he stability of the network and far lower hashrates are completely acceptibl= e provided the network is protected from large switch-ons, which I say is ac= hievable. >=20 > I do have other thoughts to approach greed that I have not yet made formal= on this list, much unrelated to your proposal, but, I see freedom of use of= Bitcoin needing to be censorship resistant but not necessarily mining provi= ded it is protected enough or free or flexible enough to allow for, say, 50k= globally distributed standard mining hardware units to exist operating at a= ny one time profitably. That said, I am PoW only and not PoS orientated. > =20 > From: akaramaoun@gmail.com on behalf of Andrew > Sent: Sunday, 16 September 2018 2:01:19 AM > To: Damian Williamson > Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion > Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Selfish Mining Prevention > =20 > @Moral Agent: No problem. I did ask in the first post what the current > plans are for selfish miner prevention. So if anyone has any other > relevant ideas (not just for selfish mining but for making mining more > decentralized and competetive), then please post it, but I just prefer > to focus on my proposal more than others. >=20 > @Damian: I think you are concerned that this will incentivize more > global resource consumption and will be detrimental to our > environment? Personally, I believe centralization of energy does more > harm to the environment rather than total energy consumption. If > Bitcoin helps "power" to become more decentralized, then I wouldn't be > surprised if total (global) energy consumption actually decreases. The > debt based economy is forcing us to continuously grow and use up more > resources, and collectivism is turning individuals into > super-organisms capable of doing much more harm to the environment > than can be done by one or a just a few individuals working > independently. In my proposal, I actually allow for changing > environmental conditions by measuring only the peak hashrate of the > past year, and not the full history of blocks. >=20 > On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 5:29 AM, Damian Williamson w= rote: > >>This "reserve" part of the fee will be paid to miners if the hashrate > >> rises. > > > > > > Anticipating ongoing hashrate rise shows that you have not yet thought a= bout > > moving outside of the current greed model, a model wherein mining will > > consume all available resources within the colony's objective just to sp= read > > as far as possible with each new miner bringing diminishing individual > > returns and shortening the life of Earth for no additional gain. Greed m= odel > > :=3D bacteria. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > on behalf of Andrew via > > bitcoin-dev > > Sent: Friday, 14 September 2018 9:19:37 AM > > To: Bitcoin Dev > > Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Selfish Mining Prevention > > > > I discussed this more at bitcointalk: > > https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D4998410.0 > > > > The attacks I'm interested in preventing are not only selfish mining > > and collusion, but also more subtle attacks like block withholding, > > and in general anything that aims to drive out the competition in > > order to increase hashrate fraction. I also scrapped the idea of > > changing the block subsidies, and I am only focuses on fees. > > > > You can read more about the motivation and details in the bitcointalk > > thread, but my proposal in short would be to add the concept of > > "reserve fees". When a user makes a transaction, for each txout > > script, they can add parameters that specify the fraction of the total > > fee that is held in "reserve" and the time it is held in "reserve" > > (can set a limit of 2016 blocks). This "reserve" part of the fee will > > be paid to miners if the hashrate rises. So if hashrate is currently h > > and peak hashrate (from past year) is p, then for each period (1 day), > > a new hashrate is calculated h1, and if h1 > h, then the fraction > > (h1-h)/p from the reserve fees created in the past 2016 blocks will be > > released to miners for that period (spread out over the 144 blocks in > > that period). And this will keep happening as long as hashrate keeps > > rising, until the "contract" expires, and the leftover part can be > > used by the owner of the unspent output, but it can only be used for > > paying fees, not as inputs for future transactions (to save on block > > space). > > > > This should incentivize miners to not drive out the competition, since > > if they do, there will be less of these reserve fees given to miners. > > Yes in the end the miners will get all the fees, but with rising > > hashrate they get an unconditional subsidy that does not require > > transactions, thus more space for transactions with fees. > > > > I can make a formal BIP and pull request, but I need to know if there > > is interest in this. Now fees don't play such a large part of the > > block reward, but they will get more important, and this change > > wouldn't force anything (would be voluntary by each user), just miners > > have to agree to it with a soft fork (so they don't spend from the > > anyone-can-spend outputs used for reserve fees). Resource requirements > > for validation are quite small I believe. > > > > On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 12:11 AM, Andrew wrote: > >> As I understand, selfish mining is an attack where miners collude to > >> mine at a lower hashrate then with all miners working independently. > >> What are the current strategies used to prevent this and what are the > >> future plans? > >> > >> One idea I have is to let the block reward get "modulated" according > >> to peak hashrate. Say p is the peak hashrate for 365 periods (1 year) > >> consisting of 144 blocks, h is the hashrate of the last 144 block (1 > >> day) period, and r is the base subsidy (12.5 BTC currently). You can > >> then make the max block reward 0.5 r (1 + h/p). So if hashrate is at > >> peak you get the full reward. Otherwise you get less, down to a min of > >> 0.5 r. > >> > >> If miners were to collude to mine at a lower than peak hashrate, then > >> they may be able to do it profitably for 144 blocks, but after that, > >> the reward would get modulated and it wouldn't be so much in their > >> interest to continue mining at the lower hashrate. > >> > >> What flaws are there with this? I know it could be controversial due > >> to easier mining present for early miners, so maybe it would have to > >> be done in combination with a new more dynamic difficulty adjustment > >> algorithm. But I don't see how hashrate can continue rising > >> indefinitely, so a solution should be made for selfish mining. > >> > >> Also when subsidies stop and a fee market is needed, I guess a portion > >> of the fees can be withheld for later if hashrate is not at peak. > >> > >> > >> -- > >> PGP: B6AC 822C 451D 6304 6A28 49E9 7DB7 011C D53B 5647 > > > > > > > > -- > > PGP: B6AC 822C 451D 6304 6A28 49E9 7DB7 011C D53B 5647 > > _______________________________________________ > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >=20 >=20 >=20 > --=20 > PGP: B6AC 822C 451D 6304 6A28 49E9 7DB7 011C D53B 5647 > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev --Apple-Mail-29BE0082-6063-4EF7-B183-46794C05D2B5 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hash rate cannot get =E2=80= =9Cmore uneconomical=E2=80=9D. Mining will always seek a return equal to the= cost of capital, as does all production, and the energy expended will alway= s be fundamentally a function of the fee level and energy price. Fee level i= s determined by variable demand for a fixed supply of confirmation.

When you say greed you are simply referring to economically= -rational behavior. It canny be eliminated, nor would that be a benefit.

WRT energy consumption, there is nothing that can be d= one to reduce it except for people to stop using Bitcoin or for energy to ge= t more expensive.

e

On Sep 15, 2018, a= t 15:45, Damian Williamson via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wr= ote:

=

I see what you say, however, since= the proposal as I have read it says "And this will keep ha= ppening as long as hashrate keeps rising," - what actually happens in the ca= se hashrate stagnates or falls?


I would prefer to see (not only with your proposal) greater b= ias toward hashrate being exponentially more uneconomical the more it rises t= o stifle greed. The current level of mining already greatly exceeds that necessary for the stability of the n= etwork and far lower hashrates are completely acceptible provided the networ= k is protected from large switch-ons, which I say is achievable.


I do have other thoughts to approach greed that I have not= yet made formal on this list, much unrelated to your proposal, but, I see f= reedom of use of Bitcoin needing to be censorship resistant but not necessarily mining provided it is protected= enough or free or flexible enough to allow for, say, 50k globally distribut= ed standard mining hardware units to exist operating at any one time profita= bly. That said, I am PoW only and not PoS orientated.

From: akaramaoun@gmail.com <akaramaoun@gmail.com> on behalf of Andrew <onelineproof@gmail.com>
Sent: Sunday, 16 September 2018 2:01:19 AM
To: Damian Williamson
Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Selfish Mining Prevention
 
@Moral Agent: No problem. I did ask in the first po= st what the current
plans are for selfish miner prevention. So if anyone has any other
relevant ideas (not just for selfish mining but for making mining more
decentralized and competetive), then please post it, but I just prefer
to focus on my proposal more than others.

@Damian: I think you are concerned that this will incentivize more
global resource consumption and will be detrimental to our
environment? Personally, I believe centralization of energy does more
harm to the environment rather than total energy consumption. If
Bitcoin helps "power" to become more decentralized, then I wouldn't be
surprised if total (global) energy consumption actually decreases. The
debt based economy is forcing us to continuously grow and use up more
resources, and collectivism is turning individuals into
super-organisms capable of doing much more harm to the environment
than can be done by one or a just a few individuals working
independently. In my proposal, I actually allow for changing
environmental conditions by measuring only the peak hashrate of the
past year, and not the full history of blocks.

On Sat, Sep 15, 2018 at 5:29 AM, Damian Williamson <willtech@live.com.au> wrote:
>>This "reserve" part of the fee will be paid to miners if the hashrat= e
>> rises.
>
>
> Anticipating ongoing hashrate rise shows that you have not yet thought a= bout
> moving outside of the current greed model, a model wherein mining will<= br> > consume all available resources within the colony's objective just to s= pread
> as far as possible with each new miner bringing diminishing individual<= br> > returns and shortening the life of Earth for no additional gain. Greed m= odel
> :=3D bacteria.
>
> ________________________________
> From: = bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> <bi= tcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org> on behalf of Andrew via<= br> > bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
> Sent: Friday, 14 September 2018 9:19:37 AM
> To: Bitcoin Dev
> Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Selfish Mining Prevention
>
> I discussed this more at bitcointalk:
> https:/= /bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=3D4998410.0
>
> The attacks I'm interested in preventing are not only selfish mining > and collusion, but also more subtle attacks like block withholding,
= > and in general anything that aims to drive out the competition in
> order to increase hashrate fraction. I also scrapped the idea of
> changing the block subsidies, and I am only focuses on fees.
>
> You can read more about the motivation and details in the bitcointalk > thread, but my proposal in short would be to add the concept of
> "reserve fees". When a user makes a transaction, for each txout
> script, they can add parameters that specify the fraction of the total<= br> > fee that is held in "reserve" and the time it is held in "reserve"
> (can set a limit of 2016 blocks). This "reserve" part of the fee will > be paid to miners if the hashrate rises. So if hashrate is currently h<= br> > and peak hashrate (from past year) is p, then for each period (1 day),<= br> > a new hashrate is calculated h1, and if h1 > h, then the fraction > (h1-h)/p from the reserve fees created in the past 2016 blocks will be<= br> > released to miners for that period (spread out over the 144 blocks in > that period). And this will keep happening as long as hashrate keeps > rising, until the "contract" expires, and the leftover part can be
> used by the owner of the unspent output, but it can only be used for > paying fees, not as inputs for future transactions (to save on block > space).
>
> This should incentivize miners to not drive out the competition, since<= br> > if they do, there will be less of these reserve fees given to miners. > Yes in the end the miners will get all the fees, but with rising
> hashrate they get an unconditional subsidy that does not require
> transactions, thus more space for transactions with fees.
>
> I can make a formal BIP and pull request, but I need to know if there > is interest in this. Now fees don't play such a large part of the
> block reward, but they will get more important, and this change
> wouldn't force anything (would be voluntary by each user), just miners<= br> > have to agree to it with a soft fork (so they don't spend from the
> anyone-can-spend outputs used for reserve fees). Resource requirements<= br> > for validation are quite small I believe.
>
> On Sat, Sep 1, 2018 at 12:11 AM, Andrew <onelineproof@gmail.com> wrote:
>> As I understand, selfish mining is an attack where miners collude t= o
>> mine at a lower hashrate then with all miners working independently= .
>> What are the current strategies used to prevent this and what are t= he
>> future plans?
>>
>> One idea I have is to let the block reward get "modulated" accordin= g
>> to peak hashrate. Say p is the peak hashrate for 365 periods (1 yea= r)
>> consisting of 144 blocks, h is the hashrate of the last 144 block (= 1
>> day) period, and r is the base subsidy (12.5 BTC currently). You ca= n
>> then make the max block reward 0.5 r (1 + h/p). So if hashrate is a= t
>> peak you get the full reward. Otherwise you get less, down to a min= of
>> 0.5 r.
>>
>> If miners were to collude to mine at a lower than peak hashrate, th= en
>> they may be able to do it profitably for 144 blocks, but after that= ,
>> the reward would get modulated and it wouldn't be so much in their<= br> >> interest to continue mining at the lower hashrate.
>>
>> What flaws are there with this? I know it could be controversial du= e
>> to easier mining present for early miners, so maybe it would have t= o
>> be done in combination with a new more dynamic difficulty adjustmen= t
>> algorithm. But I don't see how hashrate can continue rising
>> indefinitely, so a solution should be made for selfish mining.
>>
>> Also when subsidies stop and a fee market is needed, I guess a port= ion
>> of the fees can be withheld for later if hashrate is not at peak. >>
>>
>> --
>> PGP: B6AC 822C 451D 6304 6A28  49E9 7DB7 011C D53B 5647
>
>
>
> --
> PGP: B6AC 822C 451D 6304 6A28  49E9 7DB7 011C D53B 5647
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@li= sts.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev



--
PGP: B6AC 822C 451D 6304 6A28  49E9 7DB7 011C D53B 5647
____________________= ___________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list<= br>bitcoin-de= v@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation= .org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
= --Apple-Mail-29BE0082-6063-4EF7-B183-46794C05D2B5--