From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.194] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UnqUf-0008Tg-BE for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 15 Jun 2013 13:26:13 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from mail-wg0-f44.google.com ([74.125.82.44]) by sog-mx-4.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1UnqUb-00034b-NQ for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sat, 15 Jun 2013 13:26:13 +0000 Received: by mail-wg0-f44.google.com with SMTP id m15so1222414wgh.11 for ; Sat, 15 Jun 2013 06:26:03 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=references:mime-version:in-reply-to:content-type :content-transfer-encoding:message-id:cc:x-mailer:from:subject:date :to:x-gm-message-state; bh=0afxx2GGqdts3AM+l2U5UCfHlqMVNOs3LbF5YqWnhQw=; b=KpBbQ30zUGVf8FeNc52RVHfMp9R2vr/XjTqEphegKZWzro1hy1snNpb8qFqzhF1HqY xM0Xk9i+6JimFH4PZk+zazUOxJvEZidJ172yyXkOwfByXu64jIJayVbElojw1FC6Z9WH 34cJ0MRcPt2ZUbHNDBjSMADacisZaiWYefnk8chhUnIHZKNEMke3NB12BVrStQyQMVAW 3XrsPA6TVDmQmXvPRjNgRYX2TOTto12EddASK5thNR46ixcrVSo4Iv93paoFYouHlRHw ZkPp2xnPjQ475LOgcxaZbt8W+i+Y/hgMz4gWXB3aT4jsjufOnyVOsFW4oogzq6WrACr9 Ih9w== X-Received: by 10.180.72.230 with SMTP id g6mr1048212wiv.8.1371302763201; Sat, 15 Jun 2013 06:26:03 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.180] (host130-104-dynamic.60-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it. [82.60.104.130]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id ay7sm9485271wib.9.2013.06.15.06.26.01 for (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 15 Jun 2013 06:26:02 -0700 (PDT) References: <20130519132359.GA12366@netbook.cypherspace.org> Mime-Version: 1.0 (1.0) In-Reply-To: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=Apple-Mail-1EBB5071-020E-4101-985C-E4D86424CF68 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Message-Id: X-Mailer: iPhone Mail (10A523) From: Dennison Bertram Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 15:26:01 +0200 To: Melvin Carvalho X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQloT08mtrKElx9CdtWr6i8QG+02nKgezmPsVZjV8hVrNKZl4qKVbDXZ0p6RZV2GOXILPuM/ X-Spam-Score: 1.0 (+) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 MIME_QP_LONG_LINE RAW: Quoted-printable line longer than 76 chars X-Headers-End: 1UnqUb-00034b-NQ Cc: Bitcoin-Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] is there a way to do bitcoin-staging? X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 15 Jun 2013 13:26:13 -0000 --Apple-Mail-1EBB5071-020E-4101-985C-E4D86424CF68 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Why use ripple and not just use the testnet?=20 The advantageous of allowing testnet to be used as an alt-coin are That Non s= tandard transactions can be tested in a pseudo live environment where becaus= e the coins have some nominal value people are incentivized to try and steal= and come up with clever ways of gamin the system. This sort of knowledge wo= uld be invaluable if non standard transactions are ever going to become a re= ality on main net.=20 It also allows developers a chance to develop in advance new technologies an= d services that currently won't run on bitcoin main net but might be enabled= in the future at which point they can switch over to main net. Additionally= without any development happening with non standard transactions as current= ly there is no economic incentive , there might be a strong argument to neve= r bother enabling non standard transactions as the risk of doing so might no= t justify in many people's minds the benefits as if no one develops anythin= g in advance most users might not find the theoretical possibilities worth t= he risk, thus permanently hobbling the full potential of satoshis idea. Rath= er if testnet were allowed to act as an alt coin something cool might be dev= eloped that the main net users might desire enough to overcome the inertia o= f the status quo.=20 Additionally it should be considered that the time in the future when non st= andard transactions might be enabled might be so far in the future when bit= coin has hit mass adoption and changing anything might require far more poli= tical negotiations between users and devs then currently. Meaning that perha= ps much more proof of functionality and value as well as testing might e req= uired.=20 Dennison Sent from my iPhone On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Melvin Carvalho wrot= e: >=20 >=20 >=20 > On 19 May 2013 15:23, Adam Back wrote: >> Is there a way to experiment with new features - eg committed coins - tha= t >> doesnt involve an altcoin in the conventional sense, and also doesnt impo= se >> a big testing burden on bitcoin main which is a security and testing risk= ? >>=20 >> eg lets say some form of merged mine where an alt-coin lets call it >> bitcoin-staging? where the coins are the same coins as on bitcoin, the >> mining power goes to bitcoin main, so some aspect of merged mining, but n= o >> native mining. and ability to use bitcoins by locking them on bitcoin to= >> move them to bitcoin-staging and vice versa (ie exchange them 1:1 >> cryptographically, no exchange). >>=20 >> Did anyone figure anything like that out? Seems vaguely doable and >> maybe productive. The only people with coins at risk of defects in a new= >> feature, or insufficiently well tested novel feature are people with coin= s >> on bitcoin-staging. >>=20 >> Yes I know about bitcoin-test this is not it. I mean a real live system,= >> with live value, but that is intentionally wanting to avoid forking bitco= ins >> parameters, nor value, nor mindshare dillution. In this way something >> potentially interesting could move forward faster, and be les risky to th= e >> main bitcoin network. eg particularly defenses against >>=20 >> It might also be a more real world test test (after bitcoin-test) because= >> some parameters are different on test, and some issues may not manifest >> without more real activity. >>=20 >> Then also bitcoin could cherry pick interesting patches and merge them af= ter >> extensive real-world validation with real-money at stake (by early >> adopters). >=20 > Interesting idea. I wonder if ripple could be used to set up a transfer s= ystem between the 'main' and 'staging' systems ... > =20 >>=20 >> Adam >>=20 >> -------------------------------------------------------------------------= ----- >> AlienVault Unified Security Management (USM) platform delivers complete >> security visibility with the essential security capabilities. Easily and >> efficiently configure, manage, and operate all of your security controls >> from a single console and one unified framework. Download a free trial. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/alienvault_d2d >> _______________________________________________ >> Bitcoin-development mailing list >> Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development >=20 > --------------------------------------------------------------------------= ---- > This SF.net email is sponsored by Windows: >=20 > Build for Windows Store. >=20 > http://p.sf.net/sfu/windows-dev2dev > _______________________________________________ > Bitcoin-development mailing list > Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development --Apple-Mail-1EBB5071-020E-4101-985C-E4D86424CF68 Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Why use ripple and not just use the te= stnet? 

The advantageous of allowing testnet t= o be used as an alt-coin are That Non standard transactions can be test= ed in a pseudo live environment where because the coins have some nominal va= lue people are incentivized to try and steal and come up with clever ways of= gamin the system. This sort of knowledge would be invaluable if non standar= d transactions are ever going to become a reality on main net. 

It also allows developers a chance to develop in advance n= ew technologies and services that currently won't run on bitcoin main net bu= t might be enabled in the future at which point they can switch over to main= net. Additionally without any development happening with non standard trans= actions as currently there is no economic incentive , there might be a stron= g argument to never bother enabling non standard transactions as the risk of= doing so might not justify in many people's minds  the benefits as if n= o one develops anything in advance  most users might not find the theor= etical possibilities worth the risk, thus permanently hobbling the full pote= ntial of satoshis idea. Rather if testnet were allowed to act as an alt coin= something cool might be developed that the main net users might desire enou= gh to overcome the inertia of the status quo. 

Additionally it should be considered that the time in the future when non s= tandard transactions might be enabled  might be so far in the future wh= en bitcoin has hit mass adoption and changing anything might require far mor= e political negotiations between users and devs then currently. Meaning that= perhaps much more proof of functionality and value as well as testing might= e required. 

Dennison

Sent from= my iPhone

On Jun 15, 2013, at 1:18 PM, Melvin Carvalho <melvincarvalho@gmail.com> w= rote:




On 19 May 2013 15:23= , Adam Back <adam@cypherspace.org> wrote:
Is there a way to experiment with new features= - eg committed coins - that
doesnt involve an altcoin in the conventional sense, and also doesnt impose<= br> a big testing burden on bitcoin main which is a security and testing risk?
eg lets say some form of merged mine where an alt-coin lets call it
bitcoin-staging?  where the coins are the same coins as on bitcoin, the=
mining power goes to bitcoin main, so some aspect of merged mining, but no native mining.  and ability to use bitcoins by locking them on bitcoin t= o
move them to bitcoin-staging and vice versa (ie exchange them 1:1
cryptographically, no exchange).

Did anyone figure anything like that out?  Seems vaguely doable and
= maybe productive.  The only people with coins at risk of defects in a n= ew
feature, or insufficiently well tested novel feature are people with coins on bitcoin-staging.

Yes I know about bitcoin-test this is not it.  I mean a real live syste= m,
with live value, but that is intentionally wanting to avoid forking bitcoins=
parameters, nor value, nor mindshare dillution.  In this way something<= br> potentially interesting could move forward faster, and be les risky to the main bitcoin network.  eg particularly defenses against

It might also be a more real world test test (after bitcoin-test) because some parameters are different on test, and some issues may not manifest
without more real activity.

Then also bitcoin could cherry pick interesting patches and merge them after=
extensive real-world validation with real-money at stake (by early
adopters).

Interesting idea.  I won= der if ripple could be used to set up a transfer system between the 'main' a= nd 'staging' systems ...
 

Adam

----------------------------------------------------------------------------= --
AlienVault Unified Security Management (USM) platform delivers complete
security visibility with the essential security capabilities. Easily and
= efficiently configure, manage, and operate all of your security controls
= from a single console and one unified framework. Download a free trial.
http://p.sf= .net/sfu/alienvault_d2d
_______________________________________________
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Bitcoin-develop= ment@lists.sourceforge.net
https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-deve= lopment

--------------------= ----------------------------------------------------------
T= his SF.net email is sponsored by Windows:

Build for Windows Store.

http://p.sf.net/s= fu/windows-dev2dev
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