From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.191] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-2.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Z6Syk-0004hG-Pc for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 21 Jun 2015 00:19:18 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of gmail.com designates 209.85.192.178 as permitted sender) client-ip=209.85.192.178; envelope-from=elombrozo@gmail.com; helo=mail-pd0-f178.google.com; Received: from mail-pd0-f178.google.com ([209.85.192.178]) by sog-mx-1.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1Z6Syj-0004GG-Jz for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 21 Jun 2015 00:19:18 +0000 Received: by pdbci14 with SMTP id ci14so55845603pdb.2 for ; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 17:19:12 -0700 (PDT) X-Received: by 10.68.191.229 with SMTP id hb5mr45297066pbc.126.1434845951974; Sat, 20 Jun 2015 17:19:11 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.102] (cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com. [76.167.237.202]) by mx.google.com with ESMTPSA id kk6sm15326906pdb.94.2015.06.20.17.19.09 (version=TLSv1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Sat, 20 Jun 2015 17:19:10 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_662DD05E-826F-4A21-9B92-A3CD3128D3F4"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5b6 From: Eric Lombrozo In-Reply-To: <8a49c53a032503eeca4f51cdef725fe1@riseup.net> Date: Sat, 20 Jun 2015 17:19:08 -0700 Message-Id: References: <20150619103959.GA32315@savin.petertodd.org> <04CE3756-B032-464C-8FBD-7ACDD1A3197D@gmail.com> <812d8353e66637ec182da31bc0a9aac1@riseup.net> <1727885.UUNByX4Jyd@crushinator> <83A7C606-B601-47D2-BE10-2A1412D97514@gmail.com> <8a49c53a032503eeca4f51cdef725fe1@riseup.net> To: justusranvier@riseup.net X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) X-Spam-Score: -0.8 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (elombrozo[at]gmail.com) -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message -0.1 DKIM_VALID_AU Message has a valid DKIM or DK signature from author's domain 0.1 DKIM_SIGNED Message has a DKIM or DK signature, not necessarily valid -0.1 DKIM_VALID Message has at least one valid DKIM or DK signature -0.2 AWL AWL: Adjusted score from AWL reputation of From: address X-Headers-End: 1Z6Syj-0004GG-Jz Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] F2Pool has enabled full replace-by-fee X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 21 Jun 2015 00:19:18 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_662DD05E-826F-4A21-9B92-A3CD3128D3F4 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="Apple-Mail=_BBEDAE13-DF98-4C94-B7CF-60EA84F15161" --Apple-Mail=_BBEDAE13-DF98-4C94-B7CF-60EA84F15161 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:37 PM, justusranvier@riseup.net wrote: >=20 > Signed PGP part > On 2015-06-20 18:20, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n wrote: > > On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Eric Lombrozo > > wrote: > >> If we want a non-repudiation mechanism in the protocol, we should > >> explicitly define one rather than relying on =E2=80=9Cprima = facie=E2=80=9D > >> assumptions. Otherwise, I would recommend not relying on the = existence > >> of a signed transaction as proof of intent to pay=E2=80=A6 > > > > Non-repudiation can be built on top of the payment protocol layer. >=20 >=20 > Non-repudiation is an intrinsic property of the ECDSA signatures which > Bitcoin uses - it's not a feature that needs to be built. >=20 > There's no way to accidentally sign a transaction and accidentally > announce it publicly. There is no form of third-party error that can > result in a payee receiving an erroneous contract. >=20 >=20 Justus, We don=E2=80=99t even have a concept of identity in the Bitcoin = protocol, let alone non-repudiation. What good is non-repudiation if = there=E2=80=99s no way to even associate a signature with a legal = entity? Sure, we could use the ECDSA signatures in transactions as part of a = non-repudiation scheme - but the recipient would have to also have a = means to establish the identity of the sender and associate it with the = the transaction. Furthermore, in light of the fact that there *are* fully legitimate use = cases for sending conflicting transactions=E2=80=A6and the fact that = determination of intent isn=E2=80=99t always entirely clear=E2=80=A6we = should refrain from attaching any further significance transaction = signatures other than that =E2=80=9Cthe sender was willing to have it = included in the blockchain if a miner were to have seen it and accepted = it=E2=80=A6but perhaps the sender would have changed their mind before = it actually did get accepted.=E2=80=9D - Eric Lombrozo --Apple-Mail=_BBEDAE13-DF98-4C94-B7CF-60EA84F15161 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
On Jun 20, 2015, at 4:37 PM, justusranvier@riseup.net wrote:

Signed PGP part
On 2015-06-20 18:20, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n wrote:
>= On Fri, Jun 19, 2015 at 6:42 PM, Eric Lombrozo <elombrozo@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>> If we want a non-repudiation mechanism in the = protocol, we should
>> explicitly define one rather = than relying on =E2=80=9Cprima facie=E2=80=9D
>> = assumptions. Otherwise, I would recommend not relying on the = existence
>> of a signed transaction as proof of = intent to pay=E2=80=A6
>
> = Non-repudiation can be built on top of the payment protocol layer.


Non-repudiation is an intrinsic = property of the ECDSA signatures which
Bitcoin uses - it's = not a feature that needs to be built.

There's= no way to accidentally sign a transaction and accidentally
announce it publicly. There is no form of third-party error = that can
result in a payee receiving an erroneous = contract.



Justus,

We don=E2=80=99t even have a concept of identity in the = Bitcoin protocol, let alone non-repudiation. What good is = non-repudiation if there=E2=80=99s no way to even associate a signature = with a legal entity?

Sure, we could use the ECDSA signatures in transactions as = part of a non-repudiation scheme - but the recipient would have to also = have a means to establish the identity of the sender and associate it = with the the transaction.


Furthermore, in light of = the fact that there *are* fully legitimate use cases for sending = conflicting transactions=E2=80=A6and the fact that determination of = intent isn=E2=80=99t always entirely clear=E2=80=A6we should refrain = from attaching any further significance transaction signatures other = than that =E2=80=9Cthe sender was willing to have it included in the = blockchain if a miner were to have seen it and accepted it=E2=80=A6but = perhaps the sender would have changed their mind before it actually did = get accepted.=E2=80=9D

- Eric Lombrozo
= --Apple-Mail=_BBEDAE13-DF98-4C94-B7CF-60EA84F15161-- --Apple-Mail=_662DD05E-826F-4A21-9B92-A3CD3128D3F4 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJVhgL8AAoJEJNAI64YFENUB+MP+wZPGXO1Ph77RCKVMFrVoyZY nEa5fRHPMvRqlygf9E+r60hSPDHtjnjeUQoGfslrHizppyJ/3U4O+qTWFyjcad/B bFzZVgvsB9zrT+F8Y6DmApd7QKxDSxb2GlKNcovY5B7wTsrjcyiu/eZT2sxZtBM2 GQyUKeqUyGp1lR3t8px3mEToAe46y0E/lVICVeYfDDpPIswSpxa2CBxDCuoWklSH R5rQww6xiovWwkmF8aLEfsXHVQ/Z/I6FMoV28wyZQ6JbsITr3aaNDmCOr02b2F3X VdPu5h1JjsI6DVJALRllFemQGHSM0l8DMk2reK0R0RogfNQwKPKlq6mxP4hng+9y 3Jje1s5jmSVQHfs8wzM9B4pRUSqK2uVJNjPKO0IczRR5TxYZLt/2IE/7vqPp5F5d 8JW/aiTiuZAqf5ikegzbeq/x7kMblKBEY/WAkgBg6ibLXTSABWhh1SqH3VIo2HwM 3OUiLC0KL3n/SSguoZnBVars1U4IB3HFHyhIo1NzKI0lG1CnMX82QC0hNSLK3YXm tGlZsVaKZ6NxfgpSl/heB/sGzFtwcJboPQ4wfLSDL4QWf78RCDCYxes/TEg9WWfe go3crpeKHpAHBfu2uD5elAmhPcFHPTHje+cx9FqwtH0gfilFLaDO9khsfpL1vDg6 51M+ORUHqEcLvH1t8y6B =9odg -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_662DD05E-826F-4A21-9B92-A3CD3128D3F4--