From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 2226B949 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2017 15:52:29 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: from auto-whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from out3-smtp.messagingengine.com (out3-smtp.messagingengine.com [66.111.4.27]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 3BC981B4 for ; Thu, 14 Dec 2017 15:52:28 +0000 (UTC) Received: from compute1.internal (compute1.nyi.internal [10.202.2.41]) by mailout.nyi.internal (Postfix) with ESMTP id 5073F20DA6; Thu, 14 Dec 2017 10:52:27 -0500 (EST) Received: from frontend1 ([10.202.2.160]) by compute1.internal (MEProxy); Thu, 14 Dec 2017 10:52:27 -0500 DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=sprovoost.nl; h= content-type:date:from:in-reply-to:message-id:mime-version :references:subject:to:x-me-sender:x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s= fm1; bh=+RLtSYydrNrrnojAapTI3m895yslmzKcxQzwVuCj3Bw=; b=K9OJXHlh wiDwS/rMFC8Mn3Wd6S2SccgGq9h6vHqMsoiaUdvcEC1pOfvG1gure0zWZXRAHgjB 61VCOOpX3KdFu4zn42RMePuL2eA/FQEECik5NYPuZISDmC2NCjjnxThcTepRANKR qi9YYMWxj4TkczQ6am/gMp4R3aHPtRR1ByP80les0IqDdlcspymrfaPY9bpmKL8P FlfwXBZ8aH0yOPle/N56lHCxiSV+xmqO8+wS/AFACMmEhXbkJl8y77OXXsyeReNb vImzQD2XfZ9v3KHDzAI17D3B575KLp2F2d3YLEHSA4fo0j6j0BCA15rahwI4DnWt wZLEppd7WGeP9w== DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d= messagingengine.com; h=content-type:date:from:in-reply-to :message-id:mime-version:references:subject:to:x-me-sender :x-me-sender:x-sasl-enc; s=fm1; bh=+RLtSYydrNrrnojAapTI3m895yslm zKcxQzwVuCj3Bw=; b=VhymqEMvD/BsHM2HNikz7LPepjCsWyk1C4H1GjTPel0MP pXinOtSGhpWwJhyI3pRapfAeCCmP+Mp0jnF2/1u7I5tKQ5gE8FYF+MjUiHdVP/zD nK4IjkYgRxnkRmd7WtWpF9HOjkT6z44ClTkboLj2sxRSYE2lEE5WivweLrqsyOCP gzsIl4sFrTxeiFQEHzIQRmv1BUNGJab+bvSp7ewRl9nXh3HCnAs9MNVAWREexpRi i3OO/yjpH0GqGs9qK4wFKUwXkYcyg2/MBeW5jhm2977e2Dt/r9jGsnjq+Qf+yZBg jboAaInuz6/GelAM01+lzE+mLFPocG5QTRGY2bWvA== X-ME-Sender: Received: from [10.46.104.122] (unknown [212.123.217.146]) by mail.messagingengine.com (Postfix) with ESMTPA id AA1267E322; Thu, 14 Dec 2017 10:52:26 -0500 (EST) From: Sjors Provoost Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_9608400D-3F6C-4DA2-B9BD-0446D054960D"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 11.2 \(3445.5.20\)) Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 16:52:24 +0100 References: <20171213213607.ijlvqwpdaokucgi6@fedora-23-dvm> To: "David A. Harding" , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion In-Reply-To: <20171213213607.ijlvqwpdaokucgi6@fedora-23-dvm> Message-Id: X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3445.5.20) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, LOTS_OF_MONEY, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 20:56:17 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Utilization of bits denomination X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Dec 2017 15:52:29 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_9608400D-3F6C-4DA2-B9BD-0446D054960D Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 As much as I love SI standards, "trains users to understand SI prefixes, = allowing them to easily migrate from one prefix to the next" seems unrealistic. The = metric system is about to have its 220th birthday and people in the US still don't use it. It makes sense to embrace terms that stick. "bits" as a = formal-yet-informal alias for =C2=B5BTC makes sense to me, unless = someone can point to another term that's already commonly used. I'm not too worried about the word bit having other meanings in common = language. The word "bit coin" was introduced in the English language = without a problem. A "bit" being 1 millionth of a "bit coin" doesn't = seem too difficult. It will give a while new meaning to the expression = "a bit expensive" :-) Rather than nano-bitcoin, I would suggest milli bits. It's rather unfortunate that 1 satoshi was defined as 10^-8 BTC instead = of 10^-9. We could redefine satoshi to 10^-9 BTC. Then we can use = kilo-satoshi instead of bits. Then the next step can be satoshi, = followed by millisatoshi (you never know). The smallest amount that can be handled by bitcoin software under this = redefinition would be 10 satoshi rather than 1; mostly a matter of = changing some source code comments. The only place where I've seen the unit "satoshi" used is fee = estimators. I think it's still early enough that people aren't terribly = attached to the numbers shown on those sites (most people express fees = in fiat terms, especially when complaining). We could switch from vbytes = to weight units at the same time. Sjors > Op 13 dec. 2017, om 22:36 heeft David A. Harding via bitcoin-dev = het volgende geschreven: >=20 > On Wed, Dec 13, 2017 at 01:46:09PM -0600, Jimmy Song via bitcoin-dev = wrote: >> Hey all, >>=20 >> I am proposing an informational BIP to standardize the term "bits". = The >> term has been around a while, but having some formal informational = standard >> helps give structure to how the term is used. >>=20 >> = https://github.com/jimmysong/bips/blob/unit-bias/bip-unit-bias.mediawiki >=20 > Wallets and other software is already using this term, so I think it's = a > good idea to ensure its usage is normalized. >=20 > That said, I think the term is unnecessary and confusing given that > microbitcoins provides all of the same advantages and at least two > additional advantages: >=20 > - Microbitcoins is not a homonym for any other word in English (and > probably not in any other language), whereas "bit" and "bits" have > more than a dozen homonyms in English---some of which are quite = common > in general currency usage, Bitcoin currency usage, or Bitcoin > technical usage. >=20 > - Microbitcoins trains users to understand SI prefixes, allowing them = to > easily migrate from one prefix to the next. This will be important > when bitcoin prices rise to $10M USD[1] and the bits denomination has > the same problems the millibitcoin denomination has now, but it's = also > useful in the short term when interacting with users who make very > large payments (bitcoin-scale) or very small payments > (nanobitcoin-scale).[2] Maybe a table of scale can emphasize this > point: >=20 > Wrong (IMO): Right (IMO): > --------------- -------------- > BTC BTC > mBTC mBTC > bits =C2=B5BTC > nBTC nBTC >=20 > [1] A rise in price to $10M doesn't require huge levels of growth---it > only requires time under the assumption that a percentage of bitcoins = will > be lost every year due to wallet mishaps, failure to inherit bitcoins, > and other issues that remove bitcoins from circulation. In other = words, > it's important to remember that Bitcoin is expected to become a > deflationary currency and plan accordingly. >=20 > [2] Although Bitcoin does not currently support committed > nanobitcoin-scale payments in the block chain, it can be supported in = a > variety of ways by offchain systems---including (it is hypothesized) > trustless systems based on probabilistic payments. >=20 > Thanks, >=20 > -Dave > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev --Apple-Mail=_9608400D-3F6C-4DA2-B9BD-0446D054960D Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQIzBAEBCgAdFiEE7ZvfetalXiMuhFJCV/+b28wwEAkFAloynjgACgkQV/+b28ww EAl8uw//U+T4hRne1dXv7b0CSSuKIqohs2/oIUYWLf1Xa7UTtT6mzfLsEiF5TZ0G YeIb2WhB1ZH6Tp11lsLQs6bqKsTSPDwTsL23sEpzxZH9aqIAK1Liwjb0bx+lP8US GZfje0NTGHiGghe7Ho3zZhPWLUwxPXI3On6DapzCb95yJJjUVqy7jZ8cJ4yNmvd0 8u9PFUdIWxPxwaQC/ex+RO0M+JacsT9CwYYVO6oV3I3+JyHODgGYc7V/PPJtYqn+ yVwKYZA+7mMTrk5H750Y6DNNO2INSKY6xWZOG8p3al8XMcTlnS6jncL73iZ1b6GA MJEX3PXp4p2m1pDeEzfkmfE7QKW1Wzrxj2Ax+qso2WLeu/AZMKGfv10lrWdXKpXh LSK9zqpu3uFiWt+72sTY4ULFw+p+8Q1gAojMdG1YkNM2Q3/tEnXW8TId8WD83aST Bc27IR03MWKMHRsum5Aa2ydUz/FD24PyUKxpMssZph3cAeAvWp+FfkQeGXwhbA0J GH2XgyoUuWTB0dVpHwRMVCFw/KoqVOPzyTAHNvcG7wRnMVpc991Ool6EdODAYHK6 ulKcBxij5iWLQ/EbPx5XeJGeIohYdHbxst+c2u3bWIgCuVmH1VF7xcApV3ntM3+I 3xNWjcoqSF3qmUwwi0T544uCyXOjrxDhmTWzTHiTH/XNLJmwqFg= =hVEQ -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_9608400D-3F6C-4DA2-B9BD-0446D054960D--