From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-1.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1Wm7A9-000057-EI for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:54:25 +0000 Received-SPF: pass (sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com: domain of hotmail.com designates 65.54.190.204 as permitted sender) client-ip=65.54.190.204; envelope-from=jerfelix@hotmail.com; helo=BAY004-OMC4S2.hotmail.com; Received: from bay004-omc4s2.hotmail.com ([65.54.190.204]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) id 1Wm7A8-0003gT-3g for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Sun, 18 May 2014 19:54:25 +0000 Received: from BAY173-W2 ([65.54.190.199]) by BAY004-OMC4S2.hotmail.com with Microsoft SMTPSVC(7.5.7601.22678); Sun, 18 May 2014 12:54:18 -0700 X-TMN: [uUdnkGINs3mSxgnpdYFZ7Ktxk4EBs8Ez] X-Originating-Email: [jerfelix@hotmail.com] Message-ID: Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="_f7b6e862-c714-412d-a434-193dcc9297d2_" From: Jerry Felix To: "bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net" Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 15:54:18 -0400 Importance: Normal MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginalArrivalTime: 18 May 2014 19:54:18.0924 (UTC) FILETIME=[F4968EC0:01CF72D2] X-Spam-Score: -1.1 (-) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -1.5 SPF_CHECK_PASS SPF reports sender host as permitted sender for sender-domain 0.0 FREEMAIL_FROM Sender email is commonly abused enduser mail provider (jerfelix[at]hotmail.com) -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [65.54.190.204 listed in list.dnswl.org] -0.0 SPF_PASS SPF: sender matches SPF record -0.7 RP_MATCHES_RCVD Envelope sender domain matches handover relay domain 1.0 HTML_MESSAGE BODY: HTML included in message 0.0 LOTS_OF_MONEY Huge... sums of money X-Headers-End: 1Wm7A8-0003gT-3g Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] Paper Currency X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 18 May 2014 19:54:25 -0000 --_f7b6e862-c714-412d-a434-193dcc9297d2_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Thanks for all the feedback=2C and for everyone who read through the docs. = =20 My BIP numbering was a blunder=2C and I have revised the numbering to be PC= P-0 (Paper Currency Proposal Number 0) through PCP-4. I think I was brain= -dead on that=2C sorry=2C and I am now on PCP. Please allow me to walk you through my thought process on Paper Currency=2C= if you aren't sold that there's merit. At present time=2C paper currency undeniably serves a major purpose in soci= ety and has a huge value. Whether all-digital transfers can totally replac= e paper is still unknown. And we citizens currently pay a lot to create paper money that is hard to c= ounterfeit. That too has tons of value=2C and it can be measured by lookin= g at how much is spent to design=2C print=2C and protect fiat currencies fr= om counterfeiting. And you can add to that cost the societal costs of succ= essful counterfeiting. US Numbers exceed $800M annually=2C and are a fract= ion of the worldwide numbers. And travelers routinely pay currency exchange fees=2C to acquire paper curr= ency that is accepted in particular locales. So a single internationally a= ccepted=2C border-less paper currency would have high value=2C as it could = potentially eliminate exchange fees for travelers. Add all the above costs together=2C and you can see that this is a multi-bi= llion dollar market that Bitcoin could disrupt. We could actually elimina= te all of those costs=2C while at the same time put Bitcoins into the hands= of people in a form that is more familiar. That's why this feels like a huge need that can be satisfied by creating a = single standard for hard-to-counterfeit=2C cheap to print=2C paper currency= . I think the key is a "single standard" that the public recognizes. I think that there are things that you can do with paper now that can't be = done with all-digital transfers. Maybe my perspective is too US-centric du= e to tipping customs=2C but it seems much easier to rapidly leave money for= someone without their involvement via paper than digital transfers ever wi= ll be. =20 A recent video showed a stripper/dancer stop dancing and pose to have her Q= R Tattoo scanned for payment. (Not that this is all about strippers and PC= P=2C but...) paper would be a much more practical medium than digital trans= fer in a lot of scenarios. =20 http://blogs-images.forbes.com/kashmirhill/files/2014/05/Bitcoin-stripper-Q= R-code.jpg=20 If you think about it=2C whether you slipped her a Bitcoin Paper note or di= gitally transferred payment to her QR code=2C in neither case is she able t= o verify receipt of payment until she steps off stage. But remember=2C we'= re typically talking about a buck or ten or twenty=2C not 3 bitcoins as sho= wn in the video! I saw a Reddit or bitcointalk comment=2C I believe credited to Mike Caldwel= l=2C saying that the author envisioned transactions where the buyer simply = handed over private keys (paper wallets)=2C and the merchant had all the el= ectronics. Reducing the electronics necessary for transfers seems to be de= sirable. Should I have to carry a $300 cell phone to be able to carry and = spend $20? This would be moot if 100% of people had their electronic devic= es with them 100% of the time they need to spend money=2C and the device is= 100% reliable. I know for me that's not the case. So=2C if the currency medium of paper has value=2C and Bitcoin can make pap= er currency more counterfeit-proof=2C and Bitcoin can eliminate costs=2C an= d it's a huge market=2C and the public is familiar with the paper paradigm= =2C all that's left is for the community to come up with a standard. That'= s why I took a crack at it=2C but I certainly welcome improvements! Questions:=20 1) Is paper a valuable medium for currency? I contend yes. =20 2) What's the proper tradeoff between convenience and security for paper B= itcoin Notes? I opted for splitting the private key over two QR codes on o= pposite sides of the page=2C as opposed to BIP-38=2C and I explained my rat= ionale in the documents. The rest of the technical details (the splitting algorithm=2C for instance)= need to be resolved. But I took a crack at it. And the marketing details (note size=2C shape=2C color=2C layout=2C text=2C= do we call them "Bits"=2C etc.) all need to be resolved. again=2C I gave = it my best effort=2C but I'm quite certain the community can do better than= me! First step=2C though=2C is to determine whether there's consensus to define= a standard for paper bitcoin currency. Thanks for hearing me out!=20 Docs are here: =20 https://github.com/jerfelix/provisional_bips/blob/master/README.mediawiki=20 = --_f7b6e862-c714-412d-a434-193dcc9297d2_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Thanks for all the feedback=2C a= nd for everyone who read through the docs. =3B

My BIP numbering= was a blunder=2C and I have revised the numbering to be PCP-0 (Paper Curre= ncy Proposal Number 0) through PCP-4. =3B =3B I think I was brain-d= ead on that=2C sorry=2C and I am now on PCP.



Please allow me= to walk you through my thought process on Paper Currency=2C if you aren't = sold that there's merit.

At present time=2C paper currency undeniabl= y serves a major purpose in society and has a huge value. =3B Whether a= ll-digital transfers can totally replace paper is still unknown.

And= we citizens currently pay a lot to create paper money that is hard to coun= terfeit. =3B That too has tons of value=2C and it can be measured by lo= oking at how much is spent to design=2C print=2C and protect fiat currencie= s from counterfeiting. =3B And you can add to that cost the societal co= sts of successful counterfeiting. =3B US Numbers exceed $800M annually= =2C and are a fraction of the worldwide numbers.

And travelers routi= nely pay currency exchange fees=2C to acquire paper currency that is accept= ed in particular locales. =3B So a single internationally accepted=2C b= order-less paper currency would have high value=2C as it could potentially = eliminate exchange fees for travelers.

Add all the above costs toget= her=2C and you can see that this is a multi-billion dollar market that Bitc= oin could disrupt. =3B =3B We could actually eliminate all of those= costs=2C while at the same time put Bitcoins into the hands of people in a= form that is more familiar.

That's why this feels like a huge need = that can be satisfied by creating a single standard for hard-to-counterfeit= =2C cheap to print=2C paper currency. =3B =3B =3B I think the k= ey is a "single standard" that the public recognizes.



I thin= k that there are things that you can do with paper now that can't be done w= ith all-digital transfers. =3B Maybe my perspective is too US-centric d= ue to tipping customs=2C but it seems much easier to rapidly leave money fo= r someone without their involvement via paper than digital transfers ever w= ill be. =3B =3B

A recent video showed a stripper/dancer sto= p dancing and pose to have her QR Tattoo scanned for payment. =3B (Not = that this is all about strippers and PCP=2C but...) paper would be a much m= ore practical medium than digital transfer in a lot of scenarios. =3B <= br>http://blogs-images.forbes.com/= kashmirhill/files/2014/05/Bitcoin-stripper-QR-code.jpg
If you think= about it=2C whether you slipped her a Bitcoin Paper note or digitally tran= sferred payment to her QR code=2C in neither case is she able to verify rec= eipt of payment until she steps off stage. =3B But remember=2C we're ty= pically talking about a buck or ten or twenty=2C not 3 bitcoins as shown in= the video!



I saw a Reddit or bitcointalk comment=2C I belie= ve credited to Mike Caldwell=2C saying that the author envisioned transacti= ons where the buyer simply handed over private keys (paper wallets)=2C and = the merchant had all the electronics. =3B Reducing the electronics nece= ssary for transfers seems to be desirable. =3B Should I have to carry a= $300 cell phone to be able to carry and spend $20? =3B This would be m= oot if 100% of people had their electronic devices with them 100% of the ti= me they need to spend money=2C and the device is 100% reliable. =3B I k= now for me that's not the case.

So=2C if the currency medium of pape= r has value=2C and Bitcoin can make paper currency more counterfeit-proof= =2C and Bitcoin can eliminate costs=2C and it's a huge market=2C and the pu= blic is familiar with the paper paradigm=2C all that's left is for the comm= unity to come up with a standard. =3B That's why I took a crack at it= =2C but I certainly welcome improvements!

Questions:
1) =3B = Is paper a valuable medium for currency? =3B I contend yes. =3B 2) =3B What's the proper tradeoff between convenience and security for= paper Bitcoin Notes? =3B I opted for splitting the private key over tw= o QR codes on opposite sides of the page=2C as opposed to BIP-38=2C and I e= xplained my rationale in the documents.

The rest of the technical de= tails (the splitting algorithm=2C for instance) need to be resolved. = =3B But I took a crack at it.
And the marketing details (note size=2C sh= ape=2C color=2C layout=2C text=2C do we call them "Bits"=2C etc.) all need = to be resolved. =3B again=2C I gave it my best effort=2C but I'm quite = certain the community can do better than me!


First step=2C thoug= h=2C is to determine whether there's consensus to define a standard for pap= er bitcoin currency.



Thanks for hearing me out!
Docs are= here: =3B =3B
https://github.com/= jerfelix/provisional_bips/blob/master/README.mediawiki


= --_f7b6e862-c714-412d-a434-193dcc9297d2_--