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[2003:dd:6712:6418:1d2:360e:ce63:5895]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id o20sm21868050wrh.8.2019.06.30.11.35.34 (version=TLS1_2 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-AES128-GCM-SHA256 bits=128/128); Sun, 30 Jun 2019 11:35:34 -0700 (PDT) From: Tamas Blummer Message-Id: Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_DBC8C47B-698D-4364-BEE2-6A391FED7B89"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 10.3 \(3273\)) Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 20:35:33 +0200 In-Reply-To: <83705370-79FC-4006-BA04-4782AD5BE70B@voskuil.org> To: Eric Voskuil References: <0DBC0DEA-C999-4AEE-B2E1-D5337ECD9405@gmail.com> <7A10C0F5-E206-43C1-853F-64AE04F57711@voskuil.org> <708D14A9-D25E-4DD2-8B6E-39A1194A7A00@voskuil.org> <1A808C88-63FD-4F45-8C95-2B8B4D99EDF5@gmail.com> <83705370-79FC-4006-BA04-4782AD5BE70B@voskuil.org> X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.3273) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 19:33:20 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Generalized covenants with taproot enable riskless or risky lending, prevent credit inflation through fractional reserve X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sun, 30 Jun 2019 18:35:37 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_DBC8C47B-698D-4364-BEE2-6A391FED7B89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 > On Jun 30, 2019, at 19:41, Eric Voskuil wrote: >=20 >=20 >> On Jun 30, 2019, at 03:56, Tamas Blummer = wrote: >>=20 >> Hi Eric, >>=20 >>> On Jun 29, 2019, at 23:21, Eric Voskuil wrote: >>>=20 >>> What loan? Alice has paid Bob for something of no possible utility = to her, or anyone else. >>>=20 >>=20 >> Coins encumbered with the described covenant represent temporary = control of a scarce resource. >>=20 >> Can this obtain value? That depends on the availability of final = control and ability to deal with temporary control. >=20 > For something to become property (and therefore have marketable value) = requires that it be both scarce and useful. Bitcoin is useful only to = the extent that it can be traded for something else that is useful. = Above you are only dealing with scarcity, ignoring utility. There is a deeper utility of Bitcoin than it can be traded for something = else. That utility is to use its unforgeable register. We have only one kind of units in this register and by having covenants = we would create other kinds that are while encumbered not fungible with = the common ones. Units are certainly less desirable if encumbered with a debt covenant. = You say no one would assign them any value. I am not that sure as they still offer the utility of using the = unforgeable register, in this case a register of debt covered by = reserves. You also doubt forcing debt to be covered by reserves is a good idea, I = got that, but suppose we do not discuss this here. If there are people who think it is a good idea, then they would find = having an unforgeable register of it useful and therefore units needed = to maintain that register valuable to some extent. >=20 >> I think you do not show the neccesary respect of the market. >=20 > I=E2=80=99m not sure what is meant here by respect, or how much of it = is necessary. I am merely explaining the market. >=20 You are not explaining an existing market but claim that market that is = not yet there will follow your arguments. >> Your rant reminds me of renowed economists who still argue final = control Bitcoin can not have value, you do the same proclaiming that = temporary control of Bitcoin can not have value. >=20 > It seems to me you have reversed the meaning of temporary and final. = Bitcoin is useful because of the presumption that there is no finality = of control. One presumes an ability to trade control of it for something = else. This is temporary control. Final control would be the case in = which, at some point, it can no longer be traded, making it worthless at = that point. If this is known to be the case it implies that it it = worthless at all prior points as well. >=20 > These are distinct scenarios. The fact that temporary (in my usage) = control implies the possibility of value does not imply that finality of = control does as well. The fact that (renowned or otherwise) people have = made errors does not imply that I am making an error. These are both = non-sequiturs. >=20 >> I say, that temporary control does not have value until means dealing = with it are offered, and that is I work on. Thereafter might obtain = value if final control is deemed too expensive or not attainable, we = shall see. >=20 > The analogy to rental of a consumable good does not apply to the case = of a non-consumable good. If it cannot be traded and cannot be consumed = it cannot obtain marketable value. To this point it matters not whether = it exists. >=20 I meant with control the control of entries in the register which I = think is the deeper utility of Bitcoin. Final control is meant to be the = opposite of temporary which is the time limited control with some = expiry. Thank you for your thoughts as they help to sharpen my arguments. Best, Tamas Blummer > Best, > Eric >=20 >> Tamas Blummer >>=20 >>=20 --Apple-Mail=_DBC8C47B-698D-4364-BEE2-6A391FED7B89 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- iQEzBAEBCgAdFiEE6YNJViYMM6Iv5f9e9nKRxRdxORwFAl0ZAPUACgkQ9nKRxRdx ORzldgf/Vgu1aJJZJHoIg7kYrTPTYLMCaxiDs9zWQO57CGPYQse55gcKpv4lnaDu sw3bZhq8lOsrb/BHkFOY/hQ2rvp1hAiUAdRDAPIERU/HE+Tr9e2XV3KA9UeUqtPG 3PXbXzxsfj/bcjNvDAkWKTF2nJ9VWjrDiqlY5Rus07x0dqCOlYqHIAHbRlkLAS4/ 2dm/IujPAtF2wUnbvMfbpjIJtRYnjUJG9lNZc4/l1OeGjz9lFVo/yY+/7f4p/3fW +MRNsPYQEHua6oqwJUP7NzEQuIKu64lOWCTod48UlqHhG0ox5L0G8Rc40eV37vQv 2RIJPvP0K/fxZlhVBjAKu3SrlX9+Tg== =l/xH -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_DBC8C47B-698D-4364-BEE2-6A391FED7B89--