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Wed, 21 May 2025 18:12:52 +0000 From: Bob Burnett To: Pieter Wuille CC: Sjors Provoost , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position Thread-Topic: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position Thread-Index: AQHbykJbZQJfwvE0qEqhK+BEG7Guo7PdDBbEgAAd7ACAACZlF4AADV4AgAAB5CI= Date: Wed, 21 May 2025 18:12:52 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7Q6uglccxrI_LPvP2bKeTwFcBAKJ5u8u6NHtDl-dNev_kplv2lfh46r-z2iflmtnnsa8YWgn1A2M8S0jLORI2GxwNQ7qmfyM2jqQiB6JTiw=@protonmail.com> <7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547@sprovoost.nl> <3IcuX8lSFgYKmguLDUoQjb_kJEbqs3XguvDuHLRK6saQ5avdCuC3Porkhlb_kRY1x8xink3WxN40mZVGFejYEnAPmDdMAiBdA_nsGjmJfws=@wuille.net> In-Reply-To: <3IcuX8lSFgYKmguLDUoQjb_kJEbqs3XguvDuHLRK6saQ5avdCuC3Porkhlb_kRY1x8xink3WxN40mZVGFejYEnAPmDdMAiBdA_nsGjmJfws=@wuille.net> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-reactions: allow x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR03MB5171:EE_|BLAPR03MB5538:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 5df4a26a-8b2a-4b1e-178b-08dd98931a1a x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|366016|1800799024|376014|38070700018|7053199007|8096899003; 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boundary="_000_BY5PR03MB51712A578A9098824DED13FE969EABY5PR03MB5171namp_" MIME-Version: 1.0 X-OriginatorOrg: barefootmining.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthAs: Internal X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-AuthSource: BY5PR03MB5171.namprd03.prod.outlook.com X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-Network-Message-Id: 5df4a26a-8b2a-4b1e-178b-08dd98931a1a X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-originalarrivaltime: 21 May 2025 18:12:52.1435 (UTC) X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-fromentityheader: Hosted X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-id: ddddd300-8706-4e9f-911b-5396c2549018 X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-mailboxtype: HOSTED X-MS-Exchange-CrossTenant-userprincipalname: AQtAMPshin6mjmggsX96K/Rl04aAxdgc5SGZhOJPgNDb3POqN4hGGyws600glCV9yMIjCghBrdRSAlO0Vt6Kg8WKxHSUYL3TtGyiZVzREWo= X-MS-Exchange-Transport-CrossTenantHeadersStamped: BLAPR03MB5538 X-Original-Sender: bob.burnett@barefootmining.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@barefootmining.com header.s=selector1 header.b=IvP17VUC; arc=pass (i=1 spf=pass spfdomain=barefootmining.com dkim=pass dkdomain=barefootmining.com dmarc=pass fromdomain=barefootmining.com); spf=pass (google.com: domain of bob.burnett@barefootmining.com designates 2a01:111:f403:2408::727 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bob.burnett@barefootmining.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --_000_BY5PR03MB51712A578A9098824DED13FE969EABY5PR03MB5171namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable And yes, I understand how demand for such services makes sense, and I do no= t fault you for pursuing them. But they are a threat, and I think the Bitco= in ecosystem should think hard about how to avoid their emergence I appreciate your response/interaction/opinion. I do believe you come to y= our position from your belief on what is in the best interests of Bitcoin, = and I respect that. I realize that you don=E2=80=99t know me, and I can on= ly say that my position is also established with the same intentions. With= that said, I don=E2=80=99t think these types of services are a threat at a= ll. I think they are essential to a healthy mining network where miners ca= n have some control over a portion of their future revenue streams, especia= lly in the greatly reduced subsidy era we are about to enter. And, I think= the lack of a futures/forward market for blockspace is a major inhibitor t= o adoption and usage. Its hard to build a business where access to block s= pace is a necessity without any visibility to the future. I believe this c= an be done in a manner that provides openness and transparency, and it woul= d also give us for the first time visibility to future demand and pricing a= nd I think that will be valuable to the enter ecosystem. Again, thanks fo= r the reply. From: Pieter Wuille Date: Wednesday, May 21, 2025 at 1:52=E2=80=AFPM To: Bob Burnett Cc: Sjors Provoost , Bitcoin Development Mailing List <= bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate= Position You don't often get email from bitcoin-dev@wuille.net. Learn why this is im= portant Hi Bob, On Wednesday, May 21st, 2025 at 1:24 PM, Bob Burnett wrote: None of my comments insinuate that deals would not be public or that all us= ers and all miners would not have access to this service. The product/serv= ice I am working on would be public and anyone could participate. By publicly-enforced I literally mean deals enforced by the public, i.e., t= he Bitcoin network, where anyone is free to participate without needing to = ask anyone for permission (e.g., I could imagine some hypothetical mechanis= m to buy futures of block space directly, as part of Bitcoin's network rule= s). This is in contrast with what I think you're referring to, a business d= eal, known to the public or not, that is enforced by parties knowing each o= ther, and having legal agreements between them, or at least some means of l= egal recourse. The point is that revenue streams for miners that rely on them being identi= fiable real-world parties hurt permissionless of entry to the mining market= , as they'd either need to build up their own contracts with block space us= ers (where a new small-hashrate miner would be in a bad negotiating positio= n), or join a conglomerate of miners that handles these contracts jointly -= requiring asking the conglomerate for permission. A world in which there is no ability for users to have some level of certai= nty about access to future blockspace and the cost of that blockspace is no= t one that, imo, can scale to the levels that I believe we all hope to atta= in. Blockspace can/should act like any other commodity (think corn or soyb= eans) in which sellers (miners) mitigate risk and lock in long term revenue= streams, and consumers (users) can guarantee their future access and the c= ost of that access. Blockspace acting as purely a real-time, spot market i= s not one that I feel is capable of scaling to global levels. And yes, I understand how demand for such services makes sense, and I do no= t fault you for pursuing them. But they are a threat, and I think the Bitco= in ecosystem should think hard about how to avoid their emergence. -- Pieter --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= BY5PR03MB51712A578A9098824DED13FE969EA%40BY5PR03MB5171.namprd03.prod.outloo= k.com. --_000_BY5PR03MB51712A578A9098824DED13FE969EABY5PR03MB5171namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

And yes, I understand how demand for such services makes sense, and I do = not fault you for pursuing them. But they are a threat, and I think the Bit= coin ecosystem should think hard about how to avoid their emergence

 

I appreciate your r= esponse/interaction/opinion.  I do believe you come to your position f= rom your belief on what is in the best interests of Bitcoin, and I respect = that.  I realize that you don=E2=80=99t know me, and I can only say that my position is also established with the same inte= ntions.  With that said, I don=E2=80=99t think these types of services= are a threat at all.  I think they are essential to a healthy mining = network where miners can have some control over a portion of their future revenue streams, especially in the greatly reduced= subsidy era we are about to enter.  And, I think the lack of a future= s/forward market for blockspace is a major inhibitor to adoption and usage.=   Its hard to build a business where access to block space is a necessity without any visibility to the future.=   I believe this can be done in a manner that provides openness and tr= ansparency, and it would also give us for the first time visibility to futu= re demand and pricing and I think that will be valuable to the enter ecosystem.   Again, thanks for the= reply. 

 

From: Pieter Wuille <b= itcoin-dev@wuille.net>
Date: Wednesday, May 21, 2025 at 1:52=E2=80=AFPM
To: Bob Burnett <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com>
Cc: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>, Bitcoin Development M= ailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's A= dvocate Position

You don't often get email from bitcoin-dev@wuille.net. Learn why this is= important

Hi Bob,

 

On Wednesday, May 21st, 2025 at 1:24 PM, Bob Burnett = <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com> wrote:

None of my comments insinuate that deals would not be public or tha= t all users and all miners would not have access to this service.  The product/service I am working on would be public= and anyone could participate.

 

By publicly-enforced I literally mean deals enforced by the public,= i.e., the Bitcoin network, where anyone is free to participate without needing to ask anyone for permission (e.g., I could= imagine some hypothetical mechanism to buy futures of block space directly= , as part of Bitcoin's network rules). This is in contrast with what I thin= k you're referring to, a business deal, known to the public or not, that is enforced by parties knowing each= other, and having legal agreements between them, or at least some means of= legal recourse.

 

The point is that revenue streams for miners that rely on them bein= g identifiable real-world parties hurt permissionless of entry to the mining market, as they'd either need to build up their own= contracts with block space users (where a new small-hashrate miner would b= e in a bad negotiating position), or join a conglomerate of miners that han= dles these contracts jointly - requiring asking the conglomerate for permission.

 

A world in which there is no ability for users to have some level o= f certainty about access to future blockspace and the cost of that blockspace is not one that, imo, can scale to the levels = that I believe we all hope to attain.  Blockspace can/should act like = any other commodity (think corn or soybeans) in which sellers (miners) miti= gate risk and lock in long term revenue streams, and consumers (users) can guarantee their future access and the c= ost of that access.  Blockspace acting as purely a real-time, spot mar= ket is not one that I feel is capable of scaling to global levels.

 

And yes, I understand how demand for such services makes sense, and I do = not fault you for pursuing them. But they are a threat, and I think the Bit= coin ecosystem should think hard about how to avoid their emergence.

--

Pieter

 

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