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Wed, 21 May 2025 13:38:22 +0000 From: Bob Burnett To: Sjors Provoost , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position Thread-Topic: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position Thread-Index: AQHbykJbZQJfwvE0qEqhK+BEG7Guo7PdDBbE Date: Wed, 21 May 2025 13:38:22 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7Q6uglccxrI_LPvP2bKeTwFcBAKJ5u8u6NHtDl-dNev_kplv2lfh46r-z2iflmtnnsa8YWgn1A2M8S0jLORI2GxwNQ7qmfyM2jqQiB6JTiw=@protonmail.com> <7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547@sprovoost.nl> In-Reply-To: <7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547@sprovoost.nl> Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-reactions: allow x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR03MB5171:EE_|MN2PR03MB5120:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 29c802eb-9c69-4fd4-7587-08dd986cc13c x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|1800799024|366016|4022899009|376014|38070700018|13003099007|8096899003; 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spf=pass (google.com: domain of bob.burnett@barefootmining.com designates 2a01:111:f403:c102:: as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bob.burnett@barefootmining.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --_000_BY5PR03MB5171DDFE69276B128E84B81E969EABY5PR03MB5171namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On the =E2=80=9Clikely=E2=80=9D it is because most high growth, early-stage= industries go through this same change. This is because it is extremely d= ifficult for companies to adapt and change through periods of high growth. = It requires constant changes and improvements in personnel, processes, mark= eting, operations, etc. It is extremely hard to keep pace. A few in our = industry probably will navigate it and survive to the 10 or 20-year mark bu= t most will vanish. I=E2=80=99m not wishing ill on organization =E2=80=93 = just saying that history is not on their side. In the PC market the leader= s changed radically from 1985 to 1995 and then again to 2005. IBM was numb= er 1 in 1985, and they exited the business by 2005. Compaq was #1 in 1994, = and they were gone by 2000. Another example is cell phones, 2000, the lea= ding cell phone companies were Nokia and Motorola. Even in 2007 Nokia had = about 50% market share, but by 2017 they were essentially dead. On your other point regarding non-standard, I think you may have misunderst= ood my point. For me, the issue in the future in not about services for no= n-standard transactions but about giving users a mechanism whereby they can= get assurances about future access and cost of block space. For instance,= a user of block space (ex. Swan, River, Coinbase) might know that they wil= l have a lot of demand for block space in October because they are going to= be doing a major marketing campaign then. The campaign would result in a = lot of UTXO consolidation and self-custody. The problem for them is that s= itting here in May they have no idea how much demand there will be for bloc= k space and what the cost of that block space will be. By getting the righ= t arrangement with a miner (or coalition of miners), they will be able to g= et guarantees of access to October block space and lock in cost for that sp= ace. (While this exact scenario is just an example, I can say that I am a= lready working on some similar things.) From: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com on behalf o= f Sjors Provoost Date: Wednesday, May 21, 2025 at 7:20=E2=80=AFAM To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate= Position Op 21 mei 2025, om 04:10 heeft Bob Burnett = het volgende geschreven: [..] That said, I suggest being very careful about projecting the current behavi= or of major miners as the norm or representative of the future. We are ext= remely early in the development of the mining industry and there is a high = likelihood that over the next few years that there will a dramatic change i= n the list of major miners =E2=80=93 and there very well may be changes in = the philosophies and priorities of these miners as well. I don't know what your claim of "likely" is based on, but it's certainly po= ssible. However, we have to design the protocol for the worst case behaviou= r. Assuming that =E2=80=9Cmajor miners=E2=80=9D was meant to mean a group that= largely is comprised of pubcos, none of the major players in the mining in= dustry have been doing it for long - with most going public very recently (= =E2=80=9922 and =E2=80=9923). Here's a non-standard OP_RETURN mined by Eligius, not a pubco, in 2013: https://mempool.space/nl/tx/d29c9c0e8e4d2a9790922af73f0b8d51f0bd4bb19940d9c= f910ead8fbe85bc9b One example is just an anecdote of course, perhaps you could present data t= hat shows older industry players hardly mine non-standard transactions. Finally, I don=E2=80=99t see any compelling reason for a change in OP_RETUR= N policy or configurability. I speak to a lot of other miners as well and = I don=E2=80=99t know of one a single one that feels any change is beneficia= l to them now. It's not beneficial to large miners. They benefit from centralisation. It's= good for them to offer paid services that bypass standardness. - Sjors -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= 7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547%40sprovoost.nl. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= BY5PR03MB5171DDFE69276B128E84B81E969EA%40BY5PR03MB5171.namprd03.prod.outloo= k.com. --_000_BY5PR03MB5171DDFE69276B128E84B81E969EABY5PR03MB5171namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

On the =E2=80=9Clik= ely=E2=80=9D it is because most high growth, early-stage industries go thro= ugh this same change.  This is because it is extremely difficult for c= ompanies to adapt and change through periods of high growth. It requires constant changes and improvements in personnel, processes, mar= keting, operations, etc.   It is extremely hard to keep pace.&nbs= p; A few in our industry probably will navigate it and survive to the 10 or= 20-year mark but most will vanish.  I=E2=80=99m not wishing ill on organization =E2=80=93 just saying that history is not on their sid= e.  In the PC market the leaders changed radically from 1985 to 1995 a= nd then again to 2005.  IBM was number 1 in 1985, and they exited the = business by 2005. Compaq was #1 in 1994, and they were gone by 2000.  Another example is cell phones,  2000, the l= eading cell phone companies were Nokia and Motorola.  Even in 2007 Nok= ia had about 50% market share, but by 2017 they were essentially dead. = ;

 

On your other point= regarding non-standard, I think you may have misunderstood my point. = For me, the issue in the future in not about services for non-standard tra= nsactions but about giving users a mechanism whereby they can get assurances about future access and cost of block spac= e.  For instance, a user of block space (ex. Swan, River, Coinbase) mi= ght know that they will have a lot of demand for block space in October bec= ause they are going to be doing a major marketing campaign then.  The campaign would result in a lot of UTXO = consolidation and self-custody.  The problem for them is that sitting = here in May they have no idea how much demand there will be for block space= and what the cost of that block space will be.  By getting the right arrangement with a miner (or coalition of m= iners), they will be able to get guarantees of access to October block spac= e and lock in cost for that space.   (While this exact scenario i= s just an example, I can say that I am already working on some similar things.)

 

From: bitcoindev@googlegr= oups.com <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> on behalf of Sjors Provoost &l= t;sjors@sprovoost.nl>
Date: Wednesday, May 21, 2025 at 7:20=E2=80=AFAM
To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com= >
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's A= dvocate Position

 

Op 21 mei 2025, om = 04:10 heeft Bob Burnett <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com> het volgende= geschreven:

 

[..]

 <= /o:p>

That said, I sugges= t being very careful about projecting the current behavior of major miners = as the norm or representative of the future.  We are extremely early i= n the development of the mining industry and there is a high likelihood that over the next few years that there wil= l a dramatic change in the list of major miners =E2=80=93 and there very we= ll may be changes in the philosophies and priorities of these miners as wel= l. 

 

I don't know what y= our claim of "likely" is based on, but it's certainly possible. H= owever, we have to design the protocol for the worst case behaviour.

 

Assuming that =E2= =80=9Cmajor miners=E2=80=9D was meant to mean a group that largely is compr= ised of pubcos, none of the major players in the mining industry have been = doing it for long - with most going public very recently (=E2=80=9922 and =E2=80=9923).  

 

Here's a non-standa= rd OP_RETURN mined by Eligius, not a pubco, in 2013:

 

One example is just= an anecdote of course, perhaps you could present data that shows older ind= ustry players hardly mine non-standard transactions.

 

Finally, I don=E2= =80=99t see any compelling reason for a change in OP_RETURN policy or confi= gurability.  I speak to a lot of other miners as well and I don=E2=80= =99t know of one a single one that feels any change is beneficial to them now.   

 

It's not beneficial= to large miners. They benefit from centralisation. It's good for them to o= ffer paid services that bypass standardness.

 

- Sjors<= /span>

 

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