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Wed, 21 May 2025 17:19:26 +0000 From: Bob Burnett To: Pieter Wuille CC: Sjors Provoost , Bitcoin Development Mailing List Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position Thread-Topic: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate Position Thread-Index: AQHbykJbZQJfwvE0qEqhK+BEG7Guo7PdDBbEgAAd7ACAACZlFw== Date: Wed, 21 May 2025 17:19:26 +0000 Message-ID: References: <7Q6uglccxrI_LPvP2bKeTwFcBAKJ5u8u6NHtDl-dNev_kplv2lfh46r-z2iflmtnnsa8YWgn1A2M8S0jLORI2GxwNQ7qmfyM2jqQiB6JTiw=@protonmail.com> <7D52F0F3-9884-4651-9915-D3FCF575F547@sprovoost.nl> In-Reply-To: Accept-Language: en-US Content-Language: en-US X-MS-Has-Attach: X-MS-TNEF-Correlator: x-ms-reactions: allow x-ms-publictraffictype: Email x-ms-traffictypediagnostic: BY5PR03MB5171:EE_|PH7PR03MB7196:EE_ x-ms-office365-filtering-correlation-id: 6ca785e3-a22b-42ab-64f5-08dd988ba31c x-ms-exchange-senderadcheck: 1 x-ms-exchange-antispam-relay: 0 x-microsoft-antispam: BCL:0;ARA:13230040|376014|1800799024|366016|38070700018|8096899003|7053199007; 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spf=pass (google.com: domain of bob.burnett@barefootmining.com designates 2a01:111:f403:2415::72d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=bob.burnett@barefootmining.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.7 (/) --_000_BY5PR03MB5171E2D9B1EE022DC9715E17969EABY5PR03MB5171namp_ Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable None of my comments insinuate that deals would not be public or that all us= ers and all miners would not have access to this service. The product/serv= ice I am working on would be public and anyone could participate. A world = in which there is no ability for users to have some level of certainty abou= t access to future blockspace and the cost of that blockspace is not one th= at, imo, can scale to the levels that I believe we all hope to attain. Blo= ckspace can/should act like any other commodity (think corn or soybeans) in= which sellers (miners) mitigate risk and lock in long term revenue streams= , and consumers (users) can guarantee their future access and the cost of t= hat access. Blockspace acting as purely a real-time, spot market is not on= e that I feel is capable of scaling to global levels. I am not disputing t= his should be done in public not private. All of that said, my main point = right now is that about keeping configurability and flexibility for templat= e creators (and certainly node-runners too.) From: Pieter Wuille Date: Wednesday, May 21, 2025 at 10:47=E2=80=AFAM To: Bob Burnett Cc: Sjors Provoost , Bitcoin Development Mailing List <= bitcoindev@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's Advocate= Position You don't often get email from bitcoin-dev@wuille.net. Learn why this is im= portant Hi Bob, On Wednesday, May 21st, 2025 at 9:44 AM, Bob Burnett wrote: On your other point regarding non-standard, I think you may have misunderst= ood my point. For me, the issue in the future in not about services for no= n-standard transactions but about giving users a mechanism whereby they can= get assurances about future access and cost of block space. For instance,= a user of block space (ex. Swan, River, Coinbase) might know that they wil= l have a lot of demand for block space in October because they are going to= be doing a major marketing campaign then. The campaign would result in a = lot of UTXO consolidation and self-custody. The problem for them is that s= itting here in May they have no idea how much demand there will be for bloc= k space and what the cost of that block space will be. By getting the righ= t arrangement with a miner (or coalition of miners), they will be able to g= et guarantees of access to October block space and lock in cost for that sp= ace. (While this exact scenario is just an example, I can say that I am a= lready working on some similar things.) I think this is a rather remarkable response, and it undermines any opinion= you might have about transaction relay policy. To me, the primary reason why I feel divergence between relay policy and th= e set of transactions actually being mined is worrisome is because it incen= tivizes private transaction submission to miners. If that becomes commonpla= ce enough that a substantial portion of income is due to it, it may result = in an inability for new small miners to enter the mining landscape in a per= missionless manner, as they will not be competitive without income from pri= vate submission. The presence of non-publicly-enforced business deals about future block spa= ce is a manifestation of the exact same danger, but arguably more imminent.= I recognize the use case, but the demand for it, or rather the feasibility= of obtaining it, sounds to me like an serious potential threat to Bitcoin.= And I don't know what can really be done about it, except more decentraliz= ed mining. Sorry to say, but if your point is "we don't care about the public network'= s relay policy, because we'll just mine what our big direct customers want = anyway", then you are quite literally what we need to prevent. -- Pieter --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= BY5PR03MB5171E2D9B1EE022DC9715E17969EA%40BY5PR03MB5171.namprd03.prod.outloo= k.com. --_000_BY5PR03MB5171E2D9B1EE022DC9715E17969EABY5PR03MB5171namp_ Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

None of my comments= insinuate that deals would not be public or that all users and all miners = would not have access to this service.  The product/service I am worki= ng on would be public and anyone could participate.  A world in which there is no ability for users to have some level of certa= inty about access to future blockspace and the cost of that blockspace is n= ot one that, imo, can scale to the levels that I believe we all hope to att= ain.  Blockspace can/should act like any other commodity (think corn or soybeans) in which sellers (miners= ) mitigate risk and lock in long term revenue streams, and consumers (users= ) can guarantee their future access and the cost of that access.  Bloc= kspace acting as purely a real-time, spot market is not one that I feel is capable of scaling to global levels.=   I am not disputing this should be done in public not private.  = All of that said, my main point right now is that about keeping configurabi= lity and flexibility for template creators (and certainly node-runners too.)

 

From: Pieter Wuille <b= itcoin-dev@wuille.net>
Date: Wednesday, May 21, 2025 at 10:47=E2=80=AFAM
To: Bob Burnett <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com>
Cc: Sjors Provoost <sjors@sprovoost.nl>, Bitcoin Development M= ailing List <bitcoindev@googlegroups.com>
Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Removing OP_Return restrictions: Devil's A= dvocate Position

You don't often get email from bitcoin-dev@wuille.net. Learn why this is= important

Hi Bob,

 

On Wednesday, May 21st, 2025 at 9:44 AM, Bob Burnett = <bob.burnett@barefootmining.com> wrote:

On your other point regarding non-standard, I think you may have mi= sunderstood my point.  For me, the issue in the future in not about services for non-standard transactions but about givin= g users a mechanism whereby they can get assurances about future access and= cost of block space.  For instance, a user of block space (ex. Swan, = River, Coinbase) might know that they will have a lot of demand for block space in October because they are goin= g to be doing a major marketing campaign then.  The campaign would res= ult in a lot of UTXO consolidation and self-custody.  The problem for = them is that sitting here in May they have no idea how much demand there will be for block space and what the cost of= that block space will be.  By getting the right arrangement with a mi= ner (or coalition of miners), they will be able to get guarantees of access= to October block space and lock in cost for that space.   (While this exact scenario is just an example,= I can say that I am already working on some similar things.)

 

I think this is a rather remarkable response, and it undermines any= opinion you might have about transaction relay policy.

 

To me, the primary reason why I feel divergence between relay polic= y and the set of transactions actually being mined is worrisome is because it incentivizes private transaction submission to = miners. If that becomes commonplace enough that a substantial portion of in= come is due to it, it may result in an inability for new small miners to en= ter the mining landscape in a permissionless manner, as they will not be competitive without income from private submis= sion.

 

The presence of non-publicly-enforced business deals about future b= lock space is a manifestation of the exact same danger, but arguably more imminent. I recognize the use case, but the dema= nd for it, or rather the feasibility of obtaining it, sounds to me like an = serious potential threat to Bitcoin. And I don't know what can really be do= ne about it, except more decentralized mining.

 

Sorry to say, but if your point is "we don't care about the pu= blic network's relay policy, because we'll just mine what our big direct customers want anyway", then you are quite litera= lly what we need to prevent.

 

--
Pieter

 

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