From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 132EB728 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2015 01:37:25 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-pd0-f181.google.com (mail-pd0-f181.google.com [209.85.192.181]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 798A3B0 for ; Fri, 24 Jul 2015 01:37:24 +0000 (UTC) Received: by pdbnt7 with SMTP id nt7so5080074pdb.0 for ; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:37:24 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=subject:mime-version:content-type:from:in-reply-to:date:cc :message-id:references:to; bh=W+xZvfVdz5RMCbJ77nngaOWVWma7fBOiGPgJkTseeIc=; b=yITSdjFQeuogX3yelFFI0W0wj8MeOUqvzcb3ipya6vZmmFXhK8i5e0DUK7Ct00TdSF MbklbIy3p1enxdZ9YLWBrU2QpnbgBadzNUboJKy9sPVLoWQxzbUTGy1NJeRI5TmlLJrs 26TfO0BCrnxObz1VS6PPMJGN+jKb07gKlc22QMlWXuNoCsO1Xdd5Sa0XVciKZDxx1cL+ 6Wqx00hNVwgJbFQ/OUatAPI77Ej8JPsYJ+jidxCXPEWLL850qmmQBUCGlqXD6HbiUUaW WfaMmmGIWDh+MUV+Q1RM6VbJqQSt7senFQJNZ4KD333YKSooQDtSpsXNlHju218n/yDK 4LRQ== X-Received: by 10.66.159.68 with SMTP id xa4mr25553856pab.105.1437701844035; Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:37:24 -0700 (PDT) Received: from [192.168.1.107] (cpe-76-167-237-202.san.res.rr.com. [76.167.237.202]) by smtp.gmail.com with ESMTPSA id vr2sm11261314pab.26.2015.07.23.18.37.21 (version=TLS1 cipher=ECDHE-RSA-RC4-SHA bits=128/128); Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:37:22 -0700 (PDT) Mime-Version: 1.0 (Mac OS X Mail 8.2 \(2098\)) Content-Type: multipart/signed; boundary="Apple-Mail=_B32DFACC-0CA5-4589-9B4F-3243695F2F42"; protocol="application/pgp-signature"; micalg=pgp-sha512 X-Pgp-Agent: GPGMail 2.5b6 From: Eric Lombrozo In-Reply-To: <0E15E07E-E21C-4541-869A-3C34CBA35774@gmail.com> Date: Thu, 23 Jul 2015 18:37:20 -0700 Message-Id: References: <55B113AF.40500@thinlink.com> <6F436293-9E2B-461C-B105-FC4CF9EBFC69@gmail.com> <42BF7FEB-320F-43BE-B3D9-1D76CB8B9975@gmai> <346D4CE0-E00D-4ABB-B131-EFA1416CB20C@me.com> <29363BE6-72A7-4D06-A974-C52BA12FD8BD@gmail.com> <55FFBC8F-A3C9-4109-89C7-AC359FBBD478@me.com> <4734381C-2000-4D9B-9099-DDE3D38D64A3@me.com> <0E15E07E-E21C-4541-869A-3C34CBA35774@gmail.com> To: Jean-Paul Kogelman X-Mailer: Apple Mail (2.2098) X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Jean-Paul Kogelman via bitcoin-dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin Core and hard forks X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 24 Jul 2015 01:37:25 -0000 --Apple-Mail=_B32DFACC-0CA5-4589-9B4F-3243695F2F42 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 I think it=E2=80=99s pretty clear by now that the assumption that all = nodes have pretty similar computational resources leads to very = misplaced incentives. Ultimately, cryptocurrencies will allow direct = outsourcing of computation, making it possible to distribute = computational tasks in an economically sensible way. Wallets should be assumed to have low computational resources and = intermittent Internet connections for the foreseeable future if we ever = intend for this to be a practical payment system, methinks. > On Jul 23, 2015, at 6:28 PM, Eric Lombrozo = wrote: >=20 > I suppose you can use a timelocked output that is spendable by anyone = you could go somewhat in this direction=E2=80=A6the thing is it still = means the wallet must make fee estimations rather than being able to get = a quick quote. >=20 >> On Jul 23, 2015, at 6:25 PM, Jean-Paul Kogelman = wrote: >>=20 >> I think implicit QoS is far simpler to implement, requires less = parties and is closer to what Bitcoin started out as: a peer-to-peer = digital cash system, not a peer-to-let-me-handle-that-for-you-to-peer = system. >>=20 >> jp >>=20 >>> On Jul 24, 2015, at 9:08 AM, Eric Lombrozo = wrote: >>>=20 >>> By using third parties separate from individual miners that do = bidding on your behalf you get a mechanism that allows QoS guarantees = and shifting the complexity and risk from the wallet with little = computational resources to a service with abundance of them. Using = timelocked contracts it=E2=80=99s possible to enforce the guarantees. >>>=20 >>> Negotiating directly with miners via smart contracts seems difficult = at best. >>>=20 >>>=20 >>>> On Jul 23, 2015, at 6:03 PM, Jean-Paul Kogelman via bitcoin-dev = wrote: >>>>=20 >>>> Doesn't matter. >>>>=20 >>>> It's not going to be perfect given the block time variance among = other factors but it's far more workable than guessing whether or not = your transaction is going to end up in a block at all. >>>>=20 >>>> jp >>>>=20 >>>>=20 >>>>> On Jul 24, 2015, at 8:53 AM, Peter Todd = wrote: >>>>>=20 >>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE----- >>>>> Hash: SHA256 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>>> On 23 July 2015 20:49:20 GMT-04:00, Jean-Paul Kogelman via = bitcoin-dev wrote: >>>>>>=20 >>>>>> And it's obvious how a size cap would interfere with such a QoS = scheme. >>>>>> Miners wouldn't be able to deliver the below guarantees if they = have to >>>>>> start excluding transactions. >>>>>=20 >>>>> As mining is a random, poisson process, obviously giving = guarantees without a majority of hashing power isn't possible. >>>>>=20 >>>>>=20 >>>>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- >>>>>=20 >>>>> iQE9BAEBCAAnIBxQZXRlciBUb2RkIDxwZXRlQHBldGVydG9kZC5vcmc+BQJVsYyK >>>>> AAoJEMCF8hzn9Lnc47AH/28WlecQLb37CiJpcvXO9tC4zqYEodurtB9nBHTSJrug >>>>> VIEXZW53pSTdd3vv2qpGIlHxuYP8QmDSATztwQLuN6XWEszz7TO8MXBfLxKqZyGu >>>>> i83WqSGjMAfwqjl0xR1G7PJgt4+E+0vaAFZc98vLCgZnedbiXRVtTGjhofG1jjTc >>>>> DFMwMZHP0eqWTwtWwqUvnA7PTFHxdqoJruY/t1KceN+JDbBCJWMxBDswU64FXcVH >>>>> 0ecsk9nhLMyylBX/2v4HjCXyayocH8jQ+FpLSP0xxERyS+f1npFX9cxFMq24uXqn >>>>> PcnZfLfaSJ6gMbmhbYG5wYDKN3u732j7dLzSJnMW6jk=3D >>>>> =3DLY1+ >>>>> -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>>=20 >=20 --Apple-Mail=_B32DFACC-0CA5-4589-9B4F-3243695F2F42 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: attachment; filename=signature.asc Content-Type: application/pgp-signature; name=signature.asc Content-Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE----- Comment: GPGTools - https://gpgtools.org iQIcBAEBCgAGBQJVsZbQAAoJEJNAI64YFENU8lMQAJ4AKA+4Abe7T4uXRrmnOAVX Cr1c3e6haMJBCJfrsdiVYhoXceZaY3rf4Waf4mQ46R+ugtZjoZMVDH6AerOtJ5XF Xw+2HryIe71JgyUAOAL8yLuCMPP2SgBPI6/XfUfiB17q70KAxRqr1K4IoZ3RDAFF 85G+w4IJYjTrG+F2+wvx98PyqHBcgSymSzDRRDcOTY+Uf6zp9IbFTy4eeo03zZHW UlfIP4w4VEQ3og6WWwFcSaSD5lW8L8SJCWPrEG2F2EMmNJHUcRQ1zlVG7WEZiyXF s0qKWoNW8LFunpTRun9l4Nr0Law3VIjsmeDhs+cD4kV5FVKlXoC75u4mR4sv+Zz2 ItfwRQ9Nr/g0zmM3pETp3Y53e7cMRv956mjlR0MV6OflC6blg4HD1t0xYDTD1wVX bk5mfYp+ShZDCAaQmL5Btk41UkT+R86twHg1hAmiZ33IDpRBBTfqDaKqB7xGxSLF KqgI3N+aA9QFjGvq1zhJmqfd8pq2iJq9sZri+5pmKoag0mHDoC6o2xBwxowRvYpn Ld8YvnYRh8s8hJgKYJvvrZyp64lMwA5C16zxpkjQeAhoRnRjsiDCLb6AKgnQZjRu chhMg9PCigbWLog8t0DC2Bjb1TBVo4UzBtb68ugwpqNby3J9YLtnJLWNc9hBuz2t RXQVbWSPqKRcrOIeiSmI =CI0A -----END PGP SIGNATURE----- --Apple-Mail=_B32DFACC-0CA5-4589-9B4F-3243695F2F42--