From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Received: from sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com ([172.29.43.192] helo=mx.sourceforge.net) by sfs-ml-4.v29.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtp (Exim 4.76) (envelope-from ) id 1UcIQs-00066X-OJ for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 14 May 2013 16:50:34 +0000 X-ACL-Warn: Received: from mail-pd0-f170.google.com ([209.85.192.170]) by sog-mx-2.v43.ch3.sourceforge.com with esmtps (TLSv1:RC4-SHA:128) (Exim 4.76) id 1UcIQr-0006nB-KW for bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net; Tue, 14 May 2013 16:50:34 +0000 Received: by mail-pd0-f170.google.com with SMTP id 10so588379pdi.15 for ; Tue, 14 May 2013 09:50:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=google.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:x-received:x-originating-ip:in-reply-to:references :date:message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type:x-gm-message-state; bh=DdiDz7VL9iVAhuuwr3wcl5W8mfeCe0fgpXEi0hP+9IU=; b=XbRQG/pzVvG8udcfcMOyQTuSFQ6Z0ZLWSmcLMuyCvAOWl1MHC4VYLhshwYgLUgGv6d +vdeqOgv9/aGpGfxaIaWd+LYH1XYkVD5whV1dI5fxRwDNgC8tgHHApYWR2Dh/28EKDzU xa0SVr+xI0Oso0lTjAdomu60AxPcvhpRUF/cvB8/0IOzJpCDBXnVd1IlZAyaxewlGvGT 2ZYvYxEoZye6CLyMktkJfVtRM1K0gOV/lX+b5lzjLmRtnqeyXC9fns0ZxG15gtHBYAG3 UQX2f5U8WRZtIsMMuBg31A8uH8StCl20XXDktQADmVT0dMp1dQHwXHW4/8NfX1F1D6kr TgRA== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.68.176.133 with SMTP id ci5mr34769335pbc.21.1368550227696; Tue, 14 May 2013 09:50:27 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.68.240.106 with HTTP; Tue, 14 May 2013 09:50:27 -0700 (PDT) X-Originating-IP: [99.43.178.25] In-Reply-To: <20130514092507.GA21160@netbook.cypherspace.org> References: <20130511045342.GA28588@petertodd.org> <20130511102209.GA27823@netbook.cypherspace.org> <20130513105408.GB3393@netbook.cypherspace.org> <20130513211244.GA9550@netbook.cypherspace.org> <20130514092507.GA21160@netbook.cypherspace.org> Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 12:50:27 -0400 Message-ID: From: Jeff Garzik To: Adam Back Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQn1rYsWoMADmM/YsmEvy1Kyen+PtE66vl5zzdjTqXdGq9TdEXjzLdrFZqUbja5300Y2mGPs X-Spam-Score: 0.0 (/) X-Spam-Report: Spam Filtering performed by mx.sourceforge.net. See http://spamassassin.org/tag/ for more details. -0.0 RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE RBL: Sender listed at http://www.dnswl.org/, no trust [209.85.192.170 listed in list.dnswl.org] X-Headers-End: 1UcIQr-0006nB-KW Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [Bitcoin-development] merged mining hashcash & bitcoin (Re: Coinbase TxOut Hashcash) X-BeenThere: bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.9 Precedence: list List-Id: List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 14 May 2013 16:50:35 -0000 On Tue, May 14, 2013 at 5:25 AM, Adam Back wrote: > On Mon, May 13, 2013 at 06:00:27PM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: >> >> When a transaction's input value exceeds its output value, the >> remainder is the transaction fee. The miner's reward for processing >> transactions is the 25 BTC initial currency distribution + the sum of >> all per-transaction fees. A destroy-by-miner fee transaction is a >> normal bitcoin transaction sent by any user, that might look like >> >> Input 1: 1.0 BTC >> Output 1: 0.5 BTC >> >> (the miner fee is implicitly 0.5 BTC, paid to whomever mines the >> transaction into a block) >> >> Sadly the bitcoin protocol prevents zero-output, >> give-it-all-to-the-miner transactions. > > > Well if it is a later transaction, not an integral part of the reward > transaction (that is definitionally mined by being serialized into the > coinbase), the user may elect to withhold the promised transaction > give-to-miner, so thats not so good. That evaluation largely depends on the needs of the service in question. In my decentralized identity (SIN) example, you merely need to prove to the cloud that you sacrificed some bitcoins to any-miner. The confirmed, in-chain, non-coinbase transaction becomes the root node for off-chain identity data. The penalty for the user withholding the sacrifice transaction is that their SIN is not created. That incentive may not exist in that way, in another service. > Or do you mean to say you could have (implicit reward 25BTC) and reward > transaction .001 BTC to self and 24.999 BTC with existing bitcoin format and > validation semantics? That would be close enough to give-to-miner. Also > the output sum > 0BTC limitation could be changed to >= maybe... (just one > well placed character :) Just referring to a standard, fee-bearing, user-created bitcoin transaction, where output_value < input_value. The fee is paid to the first miner who includes that transaction in a block, as part of the protocol. -- Jeff Garzik exMULTI, Inc. jgarzik@exmulti.com