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To: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000583843065253f62b" X-Original-Sender: jasonresch@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20251104 header.b=C+hmVGFK; arc=pass (i=1); spf=pass (google.com: domain of jasonresch@gmail.com designates 2a00:1450:4864:20::52e as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=jasonresch@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --000000000000583843065253f62b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Thu, May 21, 2026, 5:54=E2=80=AFAM Mikhail Kudinov wrote: > Stateful hash-based schemes have been recommended by NIST. See > https://nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/NIST.SP.800-208.pdf > . > Is the intention that these recommendations will eventually lead to full standardization and FIPS compliance? Will Bitcoin wait for that do you think, or will it lead in adopting something like SHRINCS first and then NIST will follow in certifying what would by then have become a de facto standard? Also you might be interested to read about SHRINCS: > https://delvingbitcoin.org/t/shrincs-324-byte-stateful-post-quantum-signa= tures-with-static-backups/2158 > . > I learned of SHRINCS just after making my post. I think it provides the best of both worlds: short signatures in the general case when state is available + the flexibility to fall back and sign many times in case state is lost or the stateful key is used too many times. In terms of PQC algorithms I'm aware of, this one seems to be among the best in terms of its conservative security assumptions and compactness, and the flexibility to sign many times when necessary addresses the problem with public donation addresses. Jason > > On Wed, May 20, 2026 at 7:44=E2=80=AFPM Jason Resch wrote: > >> NIST is standardizing SLH-DSA as a stateless, post-quantum-secure >> hash-based signature scheme. However, to achieve the stateless feature o= f >> being able to sign multiple messages, requires a significant size overhe= ad. >> >> SLH-DSA (for parameters n=3D16, w=3D16) results in signatures that are 7= ,888 >> bytes long. >> >> However, if statelessness isn't required, and this can be reduced to 900 >> bytes for something like XMSS using the same parameters. >> >> Furthermore, if multiple signings per key are dropped as a requirement, >> and "one time signatures" are used (e.g. WOTS+) then this size reduces >> further to 560 bytes. >> >> This is a ~14=C3=97 reduction in signature size for a feature that Bitco= in >> transactions not only don't need, but are strongly discouraged if not >> harmful. Using the same key more than once is only required if one is >> reusing the same address (discouraged), or if one is attempting some kin= d >> of double-spend attack. >> >> This could be seen as a sort of advantage: if one attempts to >> double-spend, they may expose their private key. This same property was = an >> element of Chaum's digital cash: attempting to double-spend exposed you. >> >> Is there any advocacy for NIST to standardize stateful or one-time-use >> signature algorithms? They seem well-suited to the block-chain use case, >> where there is always global and persistent state, and keys ought not be >> re-used. Though this needs to be carefully managed by wallet software: t= o >> only expose a one-time-use address to handle a single transaction with a >> single payer, and never use a OTS address for any kind of public-facing = or >> long-term donation address. Perhaps this complication makes OTS not wort= h >> introducing generally, but their space saving properties are attractive. >> >> Jason >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Group= s >> "Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send a= n >> email to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. >> To view this discussion visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/d3648bd4-03d3-4b98-92bf-d84= 5302be349n%40googlegroups.com >> >> . >> > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CA%2BBCJUhie0OZuPKhvt%2BWto8dVNHVUSDO2pG3LFbFLkORnZsnyw%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000583843065253f62b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable


On Thu, May 21, 2026, 5:54=E2=80= =AFAM Mikhail Kudinov <mkudi= nov@blockstream.com> wrote:
=
Stateful hash-based schemes have been recommended=C2= =A0by NIST. See=C2=A0https:= //nvlpubs.nist.gov/nistpubs/SpecialPublications/NIST.SP.800-208.pdf .= =C2=A0

Is the intention that these recommendations will eventually l= ead to full standardization and FIPS compliance?
Will Bitcoin wait for that do you think, or will i= t lead in adopting something like SHRINCS first and then NIST will follow i= n certifying what would by then have become a de facto standard?


<= /div>

I learned of SHRINCS jus= t after making my post. I think it provides the best of both worlds: short = signatures in the general case when state is available + the flexibility to= fall back and sign many times in case state is lost or the stateful key is= used too many times.

In= terms of PQC algorithms I'm aware of, this one seems to be among the b= est in terms of its conservative security assumptions and compactness, and = the flexibility to sign many times when necessary addresses the problem wit= h public donation addresses.

Jason=C2=A0




On Wed, May 20, 2026 at= 7:44=E2=80=AFPM Jason Resch <jasonresch@gmail.com> wrote:
<= /div>
NIST is standardizin= g SLH-DSA as a stateless, post-quantum-secure hash-based signature scheme. = However, to achieve the stateless feature of being able to sign multiple me= ssages, requires a significant size overhead.

SLH-DSA (f= or parameters n=3D16, w=3D16) results in signatures that are 7,888 bytes lo= ng.

However, if statelessness isn't required, = and this can be reduced to 900 bytes for something like XMSS using the same= parameters.

Furthermore, if multiple signings per= key are dropped as a requirement, and "one time signatures" are = used (e.g. WOTS+) then this size reduces further to 560 bytes.
This is a ~14=C3=97 reduction in signature size for a feature = that Bitcoin transactions not only don't need, but are strongly discour= aged if not harmful. Using the same key more than once is only required if = one is reusing the same address (discouraged), or if one is attempting some= kind of double-spend attack.

This could be seen a= s a sort of advantage: if one attempts to double-spend, they may expose the= ir private key. This same property was an element of Chaum's digital ca= sh: attempting to double-spend exposed you.

Is the= re any advocacy for NIST to standardize stateful or one-time-use signature = algorithms? They seem well-suited to the block-chain use case, where there = is always global and persistent state, and keys ought not be re-used. Thoug= h this needs to be carefully managed by wallet software: to only expose a o= ne-time-use address to handle a single transaction with a single payer, and= never use a OTS address for any kind of public-facing or long-term donatio= n address. Perhaps this complication makes OTS not worth introducing genera= lly, but their space saving properties are attractive.

=
Jason

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