From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 922558A7 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 19:52:09 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-io0-f179.google.com (mail-io0-f179.google.com [209.85.223.179]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E9B2B17D for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 19:52:08 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iods203 with SMTP id s203so31259444iod.0 for ; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:52:08 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=WniTarNEQfiWVKhryVxg3AKKcq2zbKuxaTwCPckToJc=; b=CvLrc7vqv3w0KV0vWb+fRZ6bjaJRYmKkBv1/HZJFLNy8s/NM1PXan/BYpiXAgnsm82 2uKG1m6knMDK0dYJClSnvmn74zhxUD8jkGCMz1t02kRqGPtUnuUEbIQXNN5QvUc3D482 YtS9wlWaS4aeIDFaIa4kll1O5+JR7DFERh5TyGWynWJ5q8qrPBgvCVtp4FDCJSz97sVw sYWKewijBujpw87lr5/2qw64t5rLXjiyKx+ZwW9KXYTMcRxihQMxeQfOe3qj/MNed6vJ IzF7mfklZSQHNPNXm5ts3cj1CQFBeUvfdxWxxp90u8sr4HfFdkkmE+aFlWejVgQQiJ7L qURQ== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.17.166 with SMTP id 38mr623913ior.21.1439409128350; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:52:08 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.79.97.135 with HTTP; Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:52:08 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: References: Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 12:52:08 -0700 Message-ID: From: Elliot Olds To: Bitcoin Dev Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a113eddb8c82b3f051d228d94 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-1.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_05,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,FREEMAIL_FROM,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] A summary list of all concerns related to not rising the block size X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2015 19:52:09 -0000 --001a113eddb8c82b3f051d228d94 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Wed, Aug 12, 2015 at 2:59 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > I believe all concerns I've read can be classified in the following group= s: > > > 1) Potential indirect consequence of rising fees. > I'd rephrase this as "Consequences of high fees." It's the level of fees that is the main issue, not their movement. Moving from 0 satoshi to 1 satoshi fees makes no real difference. Moving from $0 to $1 fees makes a huge difference. Some consequences are indirect, but others are not (the first three below are not indirect). Some of the consequences are uncertain, but others we can have very high confidence in (again: the first three) and it's only their effect size that can be reasonably disputed. Here are lots of reasons that you're missing. High fees do the following: -Reduce the utility of people using the network, even if the higher fees don't reduce their amount of transactions. -Make some use cases nonviable, depriving people of Bitcoin's decentralized benefits. -Makes level 2 infrastructure like Lightning less valuable by increasing the minimum value of anchor txns that make sense, and increasing the amount of pain suffered when your counterparty misbehaves. -Discourage experimentation with new Bitcoin use cases, making it more unlikely that such cases are discovered/improved/popular before Bitcoin's security relies on having many users. -Makes Bitcoin more vulnerable to regulation by keeping its user base from growing, meaning regulators face less pressure to keep it unregulated (see: Uber) -Reduce the amount of time we have between now and when tx fees need to pay for a significant portion of Bitcoin's security, by keeping the exchange rate and thus the value of block rewards low ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_exchange) -By slowing usage growth, make it less likely that we have a large enough base of transactions by the time we need to fund network security via tx fees. --001a113eddb8c82b3f051d228d94 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
On W= ed, Aug 12, 2015 at 2:59 AM, Jorge Tim=C3=B3n <bitcoin= -dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
I believe all concerns I've read can be classified in the= following groups:

> 1) Potential indirect consequence of rising fees.

I'd rephrase this as "Consequences of high fees.&q= uot; It's the level of fees that is the main issue, not their movement.= Moving from 0 satoshi to 1 satoshi fees makes no real difference. Moving f= rom $0 to $1 fees makes a huge difference. Some consequences are indirect, = but others are not (the first three below are not indirect). Some of the co= nsequences are uncertain, but others we can have very high confidence in (a= gain: the first three) and it's only their effect size that can be reas= onably disputed.=C2=A0

Here are lots of reasons th= at you're missing. High fees do the following:

-Reduce the utility of people using the network, even if the higher fees d= on't reduce their amount of transactions.
-Make some use case= s nonviable, depriving people of Bitcoin's decentralized benefits.
-Makes level 2 infrastructure like Lightning less valuable by increas= ing the minimum value of anchor txns that make sense, and increasing the am= ount of pain suffered when your counterparty misbehaves.
-Dis= courage experimentation with new Bitcoin use cases, making it more unlikely= that such cases are discovered/improved/popular before Bitcoin's secur= ity relies on having many users.
-Makes Bitcoin more vulnerable t= o regulation by keeping its user base from growing, meaning regulators face= less pressure to keep it unregulated (see: Uber)
-Reduce the amo= unt of time we have between now and when tx fees need to pay for a signific= ant portion of Bitcoin's security, by keeping the exchange rate and thu= s the value of block rewards low (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equation_of_exchange)



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