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boundary="000000000000ceaeae05bdab7419" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 19:27:39 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Consensus (hard fork) PoST Datastore for Energy Efficient Mining X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev.lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Unsubscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/options/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=unsubscribe> List-Archive: <http://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/> List-Post: <mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> List-Help: <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=help> List-Subscribe: <https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev>, <mailto:bitcoin-dev-request@lists.linuxfoundation.org?subject=subscribe> X-List-Received-Date: Tue, 16 Mar 2021 18:23:03 -0000 --000000000000ceaeae05bdab7419 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" In regards to my BIP proposal, I finally added a bit more details to the draft. So far an interesting discussion to say the least. Best regards, Andrew On Tue, Mar 16, 2021, 9:23 AM Thomas Hartman via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > MY LORD HIS EXCELLENCY: > > It is indeed a contest between free markets and central planning. > > Governments can in effect say, you are permitted to buy energy to > smelt aluminum, but not to mine bitcoin, even if bitcoin is more > profitable. > > To the extent that free markets in energy are suppressed, as you > pointed out in china, bitcoin can indeed be suppressed. > > The solution is not to make bitcoin a centrally managed currency, > but to fight hard for free speech, free markets, and in particular > free markets in energy. > > That being said, bitcoin is designed to thrive even if driven > underground. > > Your humble subject etc. > > > > > > On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 9:41 AM LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via > bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > > > Good Afternoon, > > > > It is obvious that something needs to be done to curtail the current > cost of mining in kWh per block. I understand proposals are rejected > because it is considered censorship and Bitcoin has a consensus to allow > anyone to mine but, since mining requires specific hardware and energy > requirements it is already a form of censorship where most on the planet > except for the top 6% I am guessing here, cannot afford to mine. Without > affecting the current algorithm, I have previously begun to explore the > process by which mining can be turned into a lottery with only authorized > payto addresses able to mine valid blocks, since transaction fees and block > rewards exist to pay the miner. It would be better even if the algorithms > are improved if there are some ways that only a subset of miners can > produce valid blocks for any given period, say for 12 months with four > groups starting three months apart to transition, and maybe limit mining to > 50 people per continent to produce valid blocks at any o > ne time. Possibly this requires a consortium to oversee the lottery but > it is something Bitcoin can handle themselves, and would do better to > handle than to wait for government intervention as we have seen previously > in China where power was too cheap Bitcoin was banned entirely. > > > > KING JAMES HRMH > > Great British Empire > > > > Regards, > > The Australian > > LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH) > > of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire > > MR. Damian A. James Williamson > > Wills > > > > et al. > > > > > > Willtech > > www.willtech.com.au > > www.go-overt.com > > and other projects > > > > earn.com/willtech > > linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson > > > > > > m. 0487135719 > > f. +61261470192 > > > > > > This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this > email if misdelivered. > > ________________________________ > > From: bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linuxfoundation.org> on > behalf of Lonero Foundation via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> > > Sent: Saturday, 6 March 2021 3:16 AM > > To: Devrandom <c1.devrandom@niftybox.net> > > Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> > > Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Consensus (hard fork) PoST > Datastore for Energy Efficient Mining > > > > Also in regards to my other email, I forgot to iterate that my > cryptography proposal helps behind the efficiency category but also tackles > problems such as NP-Completeness or Halting which is something the BTC > network could be vulnerable to in the future. For sake of simplicity, I do > want to do this BIP because it tackles lots of the issues in regards to > this manner and can provide useful insight to the community. If things such > as bigger block height have been proposed as hard forks, I feel at the very > least an upgrade regarding the hashing algorithm and cryptography does at > least warrant some discussion. Anyways I hope I can send you my BIP, just > let me know on the preferred format? > > > > Best regards, Andrew > > > > On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:12 AM Lonero Foundation < > loneroassociation@gmail.com> wrote: > > > > Hi, this isn't about the energy efficient argument in regards to > renewables or mining devices but a better cryptography layer to get the > most out of your hashing for validation. I do understand the arbitrariness > of it, but do want to still propose a document. Do I use the Media Wiki > format on GitHub and just attach it as my proposal? > > > > Best regards, Andrew > > > > On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:07 AM Devrandom <c1.devrandom@niftybox.net> > wrote: > > > > Hi Ryan and Andrew, > > > > On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 5:42 AM Ryan Grant via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > > > > > > https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/ > > "Nothing is Cheaper than Proof of Work" > > on | 04 Aug 2015 > > > > > > Just to belabor this a bit, the paper demonstrates that the mining > market will tend to expend resources equivalent to miner reward. It does > not prove that mining work has to expend *energy* as a primary cost. > > > > Some might argue that energy expenditure has negative externalities and > that we should move to other resources. I would argue that the negative > externalities will go away soon because of the move to renewables, so the > point is likely moot. > > > > _______________________________________________ > > bitcoin-dev mailing list > > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --000000000000ceaeae05bdab7419 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <div dir=3D"auto">In regards to my BIP proposal, I finally added a bit more= details to the draft. So far an interesting discussion to say the least.<d= iv dir=3D"auto"><br></div><div dir=3D"auto">Best regards, Andrew</div></div= ><br><div class=3D"gmail_quote"><div dir=3D"ltr" class=3D"gmail_attr">On Tu= e, Mar 16, 2021, 9:23 AM Thomas Hartman via bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mail= to:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation= .org</a>> wrote:<br></div><blockquote class=3D"gmail_quote" style=3D"mar= gin:0 0 0 .8ex;border-left:1px #ccc solid;padding-left:1ex">MY LORD HIS EXC= ELLENCY:<br> <br> =C2=A0 It is indeed a contest between free markets and central planning.<br= > <br> =C2=A0 Governments can in effect say, you are permitted to buy energy to<br= > smelt aluminum, but not to mine bitcoin, even if bitcoin is more<br> profitable.<br> <br> =C2=A0 To the extent that free markets in energy are suppressed, as you<br> pointed out in china, bitcoin can indeed be suppressed.<br> <br> =C2=A0 The solution is not to make bitcoin a centrally managed currency,<br= > but to fight hard for free speech, free markets, and in particular<br> free markets in energy.<br> <br> =C2=A0 That being said, bitcoin is designed to thrive even if driven underg= round.<br> <br> =C2=A0 Your humble subject etc.<br> <br> <br> <br> <br> <br> On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 9:41 AM LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH via<br> bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" ta= rget=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a= >> wrote:<br> ><br> > Good Afternoon,<br> ><br> > It is obvious that something needs to be done to curtail the current c= ost of mining in kWh per block. I understand proposals are rejected because= it is considered censorship and Bitcoin has a consensus to allow anyone to= mine but, since mining requires specific hardware and energy requirements = it is already a form of censorship where most on the planet except for the = top 6% I am guessing here, cannot afford to mine. Without affecting the cur= rent algorithm, I have previously begun to explore the process by which min= ing can be turned into a lottery with only authorized payto addresses able = to mine valid blocks, since transaction fees and block rewards exist to pay= the miner. It would be better even if the algorithms are improved if there= are some ways that only a subset of miners can produce valid blocks for an= y given period, say for 12 months with four groups starting three months ap= art to transition, and maybe limit mining to 50 people per continent to pro= duce valid blocks at any o<br> =C2=A0ne time. Possibly this requires a consortium to oversee the lottery b= ut it is something Bitcoin can handle themselves, and would do better to ha= ndle than to wait for government intervention as we have seen previously in= China where power was too cheap Bitcoin was banned entirely.<br> ><br> > KING JAMES HRMH<br> > Great British Empire<br> ><br> > Regards,<br> > The Australian<br> > LORD HIS EXCELLENCY JAMES HRMH (& HMRH)<br> > of Hougun Manor & Glencoe & British Empire<br> > MR. Damian A. James Williamson<br> > Wills<br> ><br> > et al.<br> ><br> ><br> > Willtech<br> > <a href=3D"http://www.willtech.com.au" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" t= arget=3D"_blank">www.willtech.com.au</a><br> > <a href=3D"http://www.go-overt.com" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" targ= et=3D"_blank">www.go-overt.com</a><br> > and other projects<br> ><br> > <a href=3D"http://earn.com/willtech" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" tar= get=3D"_blank">earn.com/willtech</a><br> > <a href=3D"http://linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson" rel=3D"noreferrer = noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">linkedin.com/in/damianwilliamson</a><br> ><br> ><br> > m. 0487135719<br> > f. +61261470192<br> ><br> ><br> > This email does not constitute a general advice. Please disregard this= email if misdelivered.<br> > ________________________________<br> > From: bitcoin-dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev-bounces@lists.linu= xfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev-bounces@l= ists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> on behalf of Lonero Foundation via bitcoin= -dev <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D= "_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>><b= r> > Sent: Saturday, 6 March 2021 3:16 AM<br> > To: Devrandom <<a href=3D"mailto:c1.devrandom@niftybox.net" target= =3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">c1.devrandom@niftybox.net</a>><br> > Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion <<a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@list= s.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lis= ts.linuxfoundation.org</a>><br> > Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP Proposal: Consensus (hard fork) PoST Da= tastore for Energy Efficient Mining<br> ><br> > Also in regards to my other email, I forgot to iterate that my cryptog= raphy proposal helps behind the efficiency category but also tackles proble= ms such as NP-Completeness or Halting which is something the BTC network co= uld be vulnerable to in the future. For sake of simplicity, I do want to do= this BIP because it tackles lots of the issues in regards to this manner a= nd can provide useful insight to the community. If things such as bigger bl= ock height have been proposed as hard forks, I feel at the very least an up= grade regarding the hashing algorithm and cryptography does at least warran= t some discussion. Anyways I hope I can send you my BIP, just let me know o= n the preferred format?<br> ><br> > Best regards, Andrew<br> ><br> > On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:12 AM Lonero Foundation <<a href=3D"mailto:= loneroassociation@gmail.com" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">loneroass= ociation@gmail.com</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > Hi, this isn't about the energy efficient argument in regards to r= enewables or mining devices but a better cryptography layer to get the most= out of your hashing for validation. I do understand the arbitrariness of i= t, but do want to still propose a document. Do I use the Media Wiki format = on GitHub and just attach it as my proposal?<br> ><br> > Best regards, Andrew<br> ><br> > On Fri, Mar 5, 2021, 10:07 AM Devrandom <<a href=3D"mailto:c1.devra= ndom@niftybox.net" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"noreferrer">c1.devrandom@niftyb= ox.net</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> > Hi Ryan and Andrew,<br> ><br> > On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 5:42 AM Ryan Grant via bitcoin-dev <<a href= =3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" rel=3D"= noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a>> wrote:<br> ><br> ><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0<a href=3D"https://www.truthcoin.info/blog/pow-cheapest/" = rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://www.truthcoin.info/= blog/pow-cheapest/</a><br> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0"Nothing is Cheaper than Proof of Work"<b= r> >=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0on | 04 Aug 2015<br> ><br> ><br> > Just to belabor this a bit, the paper demonstrates that the mining mar= ket will tend to expend resources equivalent to miner reward.=C2=A0 It does= not prove that mining work has to expend *energy* as a primary cost.<br> ><br> > Some might argue that energy expenditure has negative externalities an= d that we should move to other resources.=C2=A0 I would argue that the nega= tive externalities will go away soon because of the move to renewables, so = the point is likely moot.<br> ><br> > _______________________________________________<br> > bitcoin-dev mailing list<br> > <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_bl= ank" rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br> > <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-= dev" rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfou= ndation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br> _______________________________________________<br> bitcoin-dev mailing list<br> <a href=3D"mailto:bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org" target=3D"_blank" = rel=3D"noreferrer">bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org</a><br> <a href=3D"https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev" = rel=3D"noreferrer noreferrer" target=3D"_blank">https://lists.linuxfoundati= on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev</a><br> </blockquote></div> --000000000000ceaeae05bdab7419--