From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id B1F3CF18 for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 15:24:16 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-ua0-f181.google.com (mail-ua0-f181.google.com [209.85.217.181]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 852A918A for ; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 15:24:15 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ua0-f181.google.com with SMTP id v22so7060078uaj.1 for ; Mon, 08 Jan 2018 07:24:15 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=mGJ+99yqUu7M8mV7W6Gi5M+diYF3oa+NFsbirQRkwms=; b=YhPzYRmDQgCrJPXR1UXykC5aTkUEm14XzKFYumkqAPDr91jzwLMtR57h48VVkHKjN/ UudJsE8B7WsXZtZtmDkKrm5inK2ZzSZ0wXhsqu2yR6tJ3W957/3ZTeX8RfSLDAe5C7O+ vodCntbIEhbCCfbGcw1aP6FzK6MiiZ09PWRiQCmFBmK8Zac46uZ1LhHcLqckwZ9JWdvg vwiT+gnm9WVIqf1r/6k9fJa2F2uowckQXL+MT/feaV1Axp4HdrA7Hqo8z80IYFQYbm2w U6M4qFrS0U2zSJrNiimrCBKCZz1vCoHl5ZC+MXhVNq+8z7AKd4axlVBRBYssamkDhKCq yaDA== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=mGJ+99yqUu7M8mV7W6Gi5M+diYF3oa+NFsbirQRkwms=; b=N5RlPuYgHPVWCHc0pMrxGE05RFdCHn7U/UyvHFPUW+6vqjtR88a+NAnwc7YwSS6Wsq FMsIj5VXR8bCuEAW8QoG7vJ0I8J9sSujXlORidQDWEz8AJV1W2NxnNKST/gXcngq5ZyK im3uY7Q87DSHTpiksCeZXtccb9/mMXNso5XlHwbBdNPi2SXtoIiukbAe2UOrITsGjaeD UClQYzrt8ZVbZGi7kvvw6Ia/V1WgVo92i5x/rI9yhl5H0yaQM0cJ227imTUO6xuZHuRV 0x6utjNBtLENl32Y8SfghgK+71r2sWZYagPRYkkqgKofV/rOPJ3x+ebnr84ui//g5fNQ ey/A== X-Gm-Message-State: AKwxytcWGKxhxXdjpsDx7yABLdxHh2BHtYiA5jN8kZUUckdRFFiFBUpi 1KDekK9JJYA/cpZ3ao9nh4Q0Lv/lH7w2vMGV X-Google-Smtp-Source: ACJfBotBUa1rMgevo8iGNK4SxroBE/+RsaosJM2QF+IsqYh1nYigPbiqqcOP4Reuyw0u1hmXDr+PWUgbJeYKh1qcYYM= X-Received: by 10.176.79.133 with SMTP id m5mr4978147uah.112.1515425054463; Mon, 08 Jan 2018 07:24:14 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 Received: by 10.103.72.203 with HTTP; Mon, 8 Jan 2018 07:23:53 -0800 (PST) In-Reply-To: References: <57f5fcd8644c6f6472cd6a91144a6152@nym.zone> From: Matias Alejo Garcia Date: Mon, 8 Jan 2018 12:23:53 -0300 Message-ID: To: Greg Sanders Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="f403043eb7e80e1e07056245640b" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-0.3 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE, URIBL_BLACK autolearn=no version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 15:25:32 +0000 Cc: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] BIP 39: Add language identifier strings for wordlists X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 08 Jan 2018 15:24:16 -0000 --f403043eb7e80e1e07056245640b Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable > Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it? yes. Based on language stats from the app stores, roughly 30% to 40% of Copay users have their backup on a language other than English, and we constantly get requests to support new languages in BIP39. On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM, Greg Sanders wrote: > Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it? > > On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia > wrote: > >> >> >> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev < >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >> >>> Has anyone actually used the multilingual support in bip39? >>> >> >> >> Copay (and all its clones) use it. >> >> >> >> >> >>> >>> If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?) used in years, and >>> isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems indicative it was a >>> mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a footgun in the makin= g >>> for some poor sap who can't even read English letters when almost all >>> documentation is written in English. >>> >>> On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, nullius via bitcoin-dev < >>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >>> >>>> On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98= =E3=82=87=E3=81=AA >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> This is very sad. >>>>> >>>>> The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English word= s. >>>>> >>>>> I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase >>>>> (because he kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "an= eter" >>>>> for "amateur"... >>>>> >>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>> If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain >>>>> processes the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing dow= n. >>>>> Not many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for >>>>> letter, taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion. >>>>> >>>>> [...] >>>>> >>>>> Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier t= o >>>>> plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency. >>>>> >>>> >>>> Well said. Thank you for telling of these experiences. Now please, >>>> let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot. >>>> >>>> I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust >>>> *their own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write thi= s >>>> down=E2=80=94then later, type it back in: >>>> >>>> =E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D =E3=82=8A=E3= =82=86=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3= =82=93 =E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86 >>>> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84 =E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84 =E3=81=8A=E3= =81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE =E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D =E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3= =82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5 =E3=81=9F=E3=82=82=E3=81=A4 >>>> >>>> (Approximate translation: =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin h= ad been >>>> invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D) >>>> >>>> No, wait: That is only a 12-word mnemonic. We are probably talking >>>> about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life= =E2=80=99s >>>> savings on your ability to handwrite *this*: >>>> >>>> =E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86 =E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3= =81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82=8B =E3=81=8B=E3= =81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86 =E3=81=84=E3=81=AE=E3=82=8B =E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3= =81=97 =E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3=81=95=E3=82=93 =E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F >>>> =E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F =E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3=81= =97 =E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F =E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA =E3=81= =AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=81=9D =E3=82=8D=E3=82= =93=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=82=E3=82=93 =E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81= =8F >>>> =E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80 =E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86 =E3= =81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2 =E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81=8F =E3=81=91=E3= =81=95=E3=81=8D =E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D=E3=82=87=E3=81=8F =E3=81=93=E3= =82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91 >>>> >>>> Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own >>>> hands? No? Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* mone= y on >>>> the inverse case. >>>> >>>> ---- >>>> >>>> If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many >>>> Japanese people know English and other European languages, too. Then = think >>>> of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family a= nd >>>> friends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks = needed to >>>> wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D. >>>> >>>> In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80= =9D at all. A >>>> =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory. Gibberish in a whol= ly alien writing >>>> system is much worse even than transcribing pseudorandom hex strings. = The >>>> Japanese man in the quoted story, who wrote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D f= or =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not >>>> dealing with a *mnemonic*: He was using the world=E2=80=99s most inef= ficient means >>>> of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly. >>>> >>>> ---- >>>> >>>> I began this thread with a quite simple request: Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97= =A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an >>>> appropriate string for identifying the Japanese language to Japanese >>>> users? And what of the other strings I posted for other languages? >>>> >>>> I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the >>>> greatest guard against vendor lock-in and stale software: Independent >>>> implementations. =E2=80=94 I asked, because obviously, I myself do n= ot speak all >>>> these different languages; and I want to implement them all. *All.* >>>> >>>> Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, >>>> nobody has squarely addressed the substance of my question. >>>> >>>> Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticis= m >>>> of multi-language support. I opened with a question about other langu= ages, >>>> and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=80=9CEnglish= only!=E2=80=9D >>>> >>>> Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever >>>> implementing any standard of this nature which is artificially restric= ted >>>> to English. I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard >>>> called =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists,= and four more >>>> pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621). >>>> >>>> I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate fo= r >>>> use with that standard. >>>> >>>> (P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing. >>>> I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters. = I >>>> thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually >>>> fascinating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC... It shoul= d go >>>> without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!) >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C >>>> Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested: >>>> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG) (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE) >>>> =E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have= nothing to hide.=E2=80=99 >>>> No! Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2= =80=94 nullius >>>> >>>> _______________________________________________ >>>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >>>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>>> >>>> >>> >>> _______________________________________________ >>> bitcoin-dev mailing list >>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia >> @ematiu >> Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads! >> > > --=20 Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia @ematiu Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads! --f403043eb7e80e1e07056245640b Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
>=C2=A0Let me re-phras= e: Is it a known thing for users to actually use it?

yes. Based on lan= guage stats from the app stores, roughly 30% to=C2=A040% of Copay users hav= e their backup on a language
other than English, and we constantly get = requests to support new languages in BIP39.=C2=A0

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:54 AM= , Greg Sanders <gsanders87@gmail.com> wrote:
Let me re-phrase: Is it a known thin= g for users to actually use it?

On Mon, Jan 8, = 2018 at 9:52 AM, Matias Alejo Garcia <ematiu@gmail.com> wrote= :


On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 11:34 = AM, Greg Sanders via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.li= nuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Has anyone actually used the multili= ngual support in bip39?

Copay (and all its clones) use it.=C2=A0



<= /div>
=C2=A0
=

If a feature of the standard has not been(widely?= ) used in years, and isn't supported in any major wallet(?), it seems i= ndicative it was a mistake to add it in the first place, since it's a f= ootgun in the making for some poor sap who can't even read English lett= ers when almost all documentation is written in English.

On Mon, Jan 8, 2018 at 6:13 AM, n= ullius via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfounda<= wbr>tion.org> wrote:
On 2018-01-08 at 07:35:52 +0000, =E6=9C=A8=E3=83=8E=E4=B8=8B=E3=81=98=E3= =82=87=E3=81=AA <kinoshitajona@gmail.com> wrote:
This is very sad.

The number one problem in Japan with BIP39 seeds is with English words.

I have seen a 60 year old Japanese man writing down his phrase (because he = kept on failing recovery), and watched him write down "aneter" fo= r "amateur"...

 [...]

If you understand English and can spell, you read a word, your brain proces= ses the word, and you can spell it on your own when writing down.=C2=A0 Not= many Japanese people can do that, so they need to copy letter for letter, = taking a long time, and still messing up on occasion.

 [...]

Defining "everyone should only use English, because ASCII is easier to= plan for" is not a good way to move forward as a currency.

Well said.=C2=A0 Thank you for telling of these experiences.=C2=A0 Now plea= se, let=E2=80=99s put the shoe on the other foot.

I ask everybody who wants an English-only mnemonic standard to entrust *the= ir own money* to their abilities to very, very carefully write this down=E2= =80=94then later, type it back in:

=E3=81=99=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93=E3=82=8D=E3=80=80=E3= =82=8A=E3=82=86=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=82=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81= =A6=E3=81=84=E3=81=8A=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=93=E3=82=84=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=82=84=E3=81=84=E3=80=80=E3= =81=8A=E3=81=86=E3=81=95=E3=81=BE=E3=80=80=E3=81=BB=E3=81=8F=E3=82=8D=E3=80= =80=E3=81=91=E3=81=A1=E3=82=83=E3=81=A3=E3=81=B5=E3=80=80=E3=81=9F=E3=82=82= =E3=81=A4

(Approximate translation:=C2=A0 =E2=80=9CWhatever would you do if Bitcoin h= ad been invented by somebody named Satoshi Nakamoto?=E2=80=9D)

No, wait:=C2=A0 That is only a 12-word mnemonic.=C2=A0 We are probably talk= ing about a Trezor; so now, hey you there, stake the backup of your life=E2= =80=99s savings on your ability to handwrite *this*:

=E3=81=AB=E3=81=82=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=97=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3= =80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=82=93=E3=81=99=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=88=E3=82= =8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=8B=E3=81=84=E3=81=93=E3=81=86=E3=80=80=E3=81=84=E3=81=AE= =E3=82=8B=E3=80=80=E3=81=AD=E3=82=93=E3=81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=AF=E3=81=82=E3= =81=95=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=B2=E3=81=93=E3=81=8F
=E3=81=A8=E3=81=86=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=8D=E3=82=82=E3=81=9F=E3=82=81=E3= =81=97=E3=80=80=E3=81=9D=E3=81=AA=E3=81=9F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=81=AA=E3=81= =93=E3=81=AA=E3=80=80=E3=81=AB=E3=81=95=E3=82=93=E3=81=8B=E3=81=9F=E3=82=93= =E3=81=9D=E3=80=80=E3=82=8D=E3=82=93=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3= =81=82=E3=82=93=E3=80=80=E3=81=BF=E3=82=8F=E3=81=8F
=E3=81=B8=E3=81=93=E3=82=80=E3=80=80=E3=81=99=E3=81=B2=E3=82=87=E3=81=86=E3= =80=80=E3=81=8A=E3=82=84=E3=82=86=E3=81=B2=E3=80=80=E3=81=B5=E3=81=9B=E3=81= =8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=91=E3=81=95=E3=81=8D=E3=80=80=E3=82=81=E3=81=84=E3=81=8D= =E3=82=87=E3=81=8F=E3=80=80=E3=81=93=E3=82=93=E3=81=BE=E3=81=91

Ready to bet your money on *that* as a backup phrase in your own hands?=C2= =A0 No?=C2=A0 Then please, stop demanding that others risk *their* money on= the inverse case.

----

If you cheat here by having studied Japanese, then remember that many Japan= ese people know English and other European languages, too.=C2=A0 Then think= of how much money would be lost by your non-Japanese-literate family and f= riends=E2=80=94if BIP 39 had only Japanese wordlists, and your folks needed= to wrestle with the above phrases as their =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D.
In such cases, the phrases cannot be called =E2=80=9Cmnemonics=E2=80=9D at = all.=C2=A0 A =E2=80=9Cmnemonic=E2=80=9D implies aid to memory.=C2=A0 Gibber= ish in a wholly alien writing system is much worse even than transcribing p= seudorandom hex strings.=C2=A0 The Japanese man in the quoted story, who wr= ote =E2=80=9Caneter=E2=80=9D for =E2=80=9Camateur=E2=80=9D, was not dealing= with a *mnemonic*:=C2=A0 He was using the world=E2=80=99s most inefficient= means of making cryptic bitstrings *less* userfriendly.

----

I began this thread with a quite simple request:=C2=A0 Is =E2=80=9C=E6=97= =A5=E6=9C=AC=E8=AA=9E=E2=80=9D an appropriate string for identifying the Ja= panese language to Japanese users?=C2=A0 And what of the other strings I po= sted for other languages?

I asked this as an implementer working on my own instance of the greatest g= uard against vendor lock-in and stale software:=C2=A0 Independent implement= ations.=C2=A0 =E2=80=94=C2=A0 I asked, because obviously, I myself do not s= peak all these different languages; and I want to implement them all.=C2=A0= *All.*

Some replies have been interesting in their own right; but thus far, nobody= has squarely addressed the substance of my question.

Most worrisome is that much of the discussion has veered into criticism of = multi-language support.=C2=A0 I opened with a question about other language= s, and I am getting replies which raise a hue and cry of =E2=80=9CEnglish o= nly!=E2=80=9D

Though I am fluent and literate in English, I am uninterested in ever imple= menting any standard of this nature which is artificially restricted to Eng= lish.=C2=A0 I am fortunate; for as of this moment, we have a standard calle= d =E2=80=9CBIP 39=E2=80=9D which has seven non-English wordlists, and four = more pending in open pull requests (#432, #442, #493, #621).

I request discussion of language identification strings appropriate for use= with that standard.

(P.S., I hope that my system did not mangle anything in the foregoing.=C2= =A0 I have seen weird copypaste behaviour mess up decomposed characters.=C2= =A0 I thought of this after I searched for and collected some visually fasc= inating phrases; so I tried to normalize these to NFC...=C2=A0 It should go= without saying, easyseed output the Japanese perfectly!)


--
nullius@nym.zone | PGP ECC: 0xC2E91CD74A4C57A105F6C21B5A00591B2F307E0C=
Bitcoin: bc1qcash96s5jqppzsp8hy8swkggf7f6agex98an7h | (Segwit nested:<= br> 3NULL3ZCUXr7RDLxXeLPDMZDZYxuaYkCnG)=C2=A0 (PGP RSA: 0x36EBB4AB699A10EE= )
=E2=80=9C=E2=80=98If you=E2=80=99re not doing anything wrong, you have noth= ing to hide.=E2=80=99
No!=C2=A0 Because I do nothing wrong, I have nothing to show.=E2=80=9D =E2= =80=94 nullius

____________________________________= ___________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev



_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
= bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundation.org= /mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev




--
Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia@ematiu
Roads? Where we're going, we don't need roads!




--
=
Mat=C3=ADas Alejo Garcia
@ematiu
Roads? Where we're goin= g, we don't need roads!
--f403043eb7e80e1e07056245640b--