From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id A858415DD for ; Sat, 19 Sep 2015 20:57:41 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-io0-f178.google.com (mail-io0-f178.google.com [209.85.223.178]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id D8C4C1CD for ; Sat, 19 Sep 2015 20:57:40 +0000 (UTC) Received: by ioiz6 with SMTP id z6so87225354ioi.2 for ; Sat, 19 Sep 2015 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=vinumeris.com; s=google; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=NnMdNh9XHQhzq5bkP3t6g4/kWWv+CBgYQlkG9HEI4T0=; b=RzBMbo9Si+OJ1bUFJPLlERcVDyx5g2z/DWOb7FOMIk4DCKEGbIO2iyDzTlBfaDM1XQ LUGtnRZZ9T076o/TmvaZeAU0CX0dafPXE/1IKRtn9IVxQrMk37+xHfBTYryOC6RvmY6D TZl+21Le/Gr+p02vA8uuIVCxdDYObqFgD0Ack= X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20130820; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date :message-id:subject:from:to:cc:content-type; bh=NnMdNh9XHQhzq5bkP3t6g4/kWWv+CBgYQlkG9HEI4T0=; b=lXCthb9WwZ4NNS+4B7mE47/8XKjGxgrCn3f0dP0Cylz9NkaVolI4JnTiX6GuURN+9m +RYdNzFpo2hTT+WRVdQ5QRVRIqke79Ta35+XnHHTn3r5+7xlc+Q5SWOgZ1dCVDE42XqY 2cG88CKN7gN+luVBiX8DoL1F+bkFaZXs1zDsXwzlwqoASHBmxG6dr5yopMfTbwS8fZqE GO14WzpivlmHz8r1asEuTUzTJaL3qweWY3WQY/CWI3GJN70hyi33Q3NNx15P5Rna038d pEjoLCX60/c3oXoM/oPx9VCZ8iz4yApxnHyN92tZiRCy4BFSPYSyFAdELGWj8rRwfiC7 9MqQ== X-Gm-Message-State: ALoCoQkeHVy5idATd5I3OgK08RsmQkUDqRIfhjgB2AvTO+os6aCyK/+qh8jauKafoph7UwqdDDwV MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.165.140 with SMTP id o134mr19066977ioe.29.1442696260247; Sat, 19 Sep 2015 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.50.192.233 with HTTP; Sat, 19 Sep 2015 13:57:40 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <55FD225B.1050402@voskuil.org> References: <55F9E47D.50507@mattcorallo.com> <55FC6EBF.9090504@mattcorallo.com> <20150919014710.GD22598@muck> <20150919060639.A775A404B9@smtp.hushmail.com> <55FD0737.1080008@voskuil.org> <20150919072714.D3349404B9@smtp.hushmail.com> <55FD1122.5030107@voskuil.org> <20150919075758.820CC404B9@smtp.hushmail.com> <55FD225B.1050402@voskuil.org> Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 21:57:40 +0100 Message-ID: From: Mike Hearn To: Eric Voskuil Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary=001a1141fb901c9a5505201fe677 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID,DKIM_VALID_AU,HTML_MESSAGE,RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Libbitcoin , Bitcoin development mailing list Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Scaling Bitcoin conference micro-report X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Sat, 19 Sep 2015 20:57:41 -0000 --001a1141fb901c9a5505201fe677 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > Your argument is that the state is not a threat to a system designed to > deprive the state of seigniorage, because the state will see that system > as too important? > And so we get to one of the hearts of the debate. The axiom upon which you and NxtChg disagree is this: he/she believes governments can crush Bitcoin if they want regardless of how decentralised it is, and you don't. If one believes governments have the power to end Bitcoin no matter what, then the only true protection comes from popularity. Governments find it hard to ban things that are wildly popular with their voters. This is the Uber approach: grow fast, annoy governments, but be popular enough that banning you is politically risky. If you don't believe that governments can end Bitcoin because of decentralisation, then the opposite conclusion is logical: growth can be dangerous because stateless money will be inherently opposed by the state, therefore if growth == less decentralisation, growth increases the risk of state shutdown. I don't think we have to choose between decentralisation and growth actually - computers are just amazingly fast. But that's irrelevant here. The point is, your disagreement is summed up by your statement: > Bitcoin cannot be both decentralized and reliant on being, "too important > to close". If it can be closed there is insufficient decentralization. > I believe this statement is wrong because governments can shut down Bitcoin at any point regardless of its level of decentralisation. This is true because: - Most governments can easily spend enough money to do a 51% attack, especially if they can compel chip fabs to cooperate for free. This attack works regardless of how decentralised Bitcoin is. - Any government can end Bitcoin usage in its territory by jailing anyone who advertises acceptance/trading of bitcoins, or prices in BTC. Because merchants *must* advertise in order to alert customers that trades in BTC are possible, this is an attack which is unsolvable. If ordinary people can find such merchants so can government agents. It may appear that trade cannot be suppressed because merchants can all become anonymous too, a la Silk Road. However, if use of Bitcoin is banned then it becomes impossible to convert coins into local currency as that requires cooperation of banks ..... making it useless for even anonymous merchants. An outlaw currency is useless even to outlaws. Because Bitcoin's existence ultimately relies on government cooperation and acceptance, the best way to ensure its survival is growth. Lots of it. --001a1141fb901c9a5505201fe677 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Your argument is that the state is not a threat = to a system designed to
deprive the state of seigniorage, because the state will see that system as too important?

And so we get to one = of the hearts of the debate.

The axiom upon which = you and NxtChg disagree is this: he/she believes governments can crush Bitc= oin if they want regardless of how decentralised it is, and you don't.<= /div>

If one believes governments have the power to end = Bitcoin no matter what, then the only true protection comes from popularity= . Governments find it hard to ban things that are wildly popular with their= voters. This is the Uber approach: grow fast, annoy governments, but be po= pular enough that banning you is politically risky.

If you don't believe that governments can end Bitcoin because of dece= ntralisation, then the opposite conclusion is logical: growth can be danger= ous because stateless money will be inherently opposed by the state, theref= ore if growth =3D=3D less decentralisation, growth increases the risk of st= ate shutdown.

I don't think we have to choose = between decentralisation and growth actually - computers are just amazingly= fast. But that's irrelevant here.

The point i= s, your disagreement is summed up by your statement:
=C2=A0
=
Bitcoin cannot be both decentralized and rel= iant on being, "too=C2=A0important to close". If it can be closed= there is insufficient=C2=A0decentralization.

I believe this statement is wrong because governments can shut down = Bitcoin at any point regardless of its level of decentralisation. This is t= rue because:
  • Most governments can easily spend enough mon= ey to do a 51% attack, especially if they can compel chip fabs to cooperate= for free. This attack works regardless of how decentralised Bitcoin is.
  • Any government can end Bitcoin usage in its territory by jail= ing anyone who advertises acceptance/trading of bitcoins, or prices in BTC.= Because merchants must=C2=A0advertise in order to alert customers t= hat trades in BTC are possible, this is an attack which is unsolvable. If o= rdinary people can find such merchants so can government agents.
    • It may appear that trade cannot be suppressed because merchants can= all become anonymous too, a la Silk Road. However, if use of Bitcoin is ba= nned then it becomes impossible to convert coins into local currency as tha= t requires cooperation of banks ..... making it useless for even anonymous = merchants. An outlaw currency is useless even to outlaws.
<= br>
Because Bitcoin's existence ultimately relies on governme= nt cooperation and acceptance, the best way to ensure its survival is growt= h. Lots of it.
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