From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 4EAA1B16 for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:20:38 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-ed1-f41.google.com (mail-ed1-f41.google.com [209.85.208.41]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 9BE2E7ED for ; Fri, 9 Nov 2018 08:20:37 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-ed1-f41.google.com with SMTP id d3so462128edx.7 for ; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 00:20:37 -0800 (PST) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20161025; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to; bh=F8TVGiXbrzI2QYjHa9R53eCK2/kZgHFBYOVMLGrPz/g=; b=cNvoYnh4z4H1Z9tPIhtzOFUrJ8fUxKNrSYq3BAUk7iBqH+UNdG4uc5Q4q2HrsZMOhF Zrc2bCgWRbhtPqbTxuSkhtMgzszmPiR9g2g6SG3WY9m+7fjCqj4EZHtQA8Kz0P5Wnkts UUoZL/B5/Oqd5C9iKlmxoPm2PCY9NEEU3RtBHrtYeQh3CiP02CbvimV+IeK7WeBZKTgw BxVKstMMvbbLs09DthEgtv941mJOpjWZDi/Pa9UUjlqZmT7RXxLKU7oWD2De1mKG6Kpy A2JDoM6nnaXIbSyNDbpR2NHQQL0sgnrkQgb6X6+MYmqt5yLQYwILW6+a/rEQxiE19oBR T8cQ== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20161025; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to; bh=F8TVGiXbrzI2QYjHa9R53eCK2/kZgHFBYOVMLGrPz/g=; b=RAZOVlwra8Fkdl0Sp7pKtOKwOLOND/yc/N7EgDDiuClgFGIyQQvoayYXq/OYU5cgDY WWSBE84ib6pkQb5vE/juWdkhYLYfgH09D1f+v2dW1VFV3WZmKCtjGQ8OU7cxzsY0CJpf gRscEdERmcYpavUJyPiyGxPR9WI0Fi+K826OXnIkxS2fkAASU0rMXzCzJVU45yT6vGCI FP8WR0fupZGivGj3OwYCURUeJMKhE9R3Sx6Tcb18iL6g33GUfFk0vSxL9Pu1bAWkxZcJ SFoNpHJjF20HuOldJ0qOnisNu21DaxSm0fJmg8zq/aG+lZPhg3qqi2tmBWSg8WDNBwEE /i7w== X-Gm-Message-State: AGRZ1gKC2H6Vm769PTfvQBQO6kkNJmvPoRzMz3Oq5Bgt8kBp46eeatAd Y9mBsSHz8ED6cWBmVcmzOCfKwROAXwE17yJPN2ga+zD6 X-Google-Smtp-Source: AJdET5e3VIBBelH9aPtokRhnu9/E7qPRGr40d2pYOPBu2X0sVItFLDfB37WKngYBHYiPZh19mKTsXxgPCyU5Fqu7uoU= X-Received: by 2002:a17:906:74d7:: with SMTP id z23-v6mr1223256ejl.234.1541751635704; Fri, 09 Nov 2018 00:20:35 -0800 (PST) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: In-Reply-To: From: Weiji Guo Date: Fri, 9 Nov 2018 16:20:21 +0800 Message-ID: To: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org, somber.night@protonmail.com, junderwood@bitcoinbank.co.jp Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000940133057a370636" X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.0 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, HTML_MESSAGE, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org X-Mailman-Approved-At: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 17:56:30 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] bitcoin-dev Digest, Vol 42, Issue 4 X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Fri, 09 Nov 2018 08:20:38 -0000 --000000000000940133057a370636 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" > Do you specifically want to support changing the language of seed words, while keeping the bip32 root seed they generate unchanged? What is the usecase for this? Yes and no. Yes that the inter-operability will be much better if the same seed could be recorded as in English and in other languages as well. There could be a standalone 3rd party tool to convert mnemonic sentences from one language to another so wallets do not have to support all languages. This, in reality, does not make any wallet more complicated or increase any dev costs. No that I don't think anyone would switch language for fun. And I think the symmetric function in SLIP-0039 is a good idea to help with migration the existing wallets. So this will look like: Chinese English Japanese <=> entropy <=> sym. KDF <==> BIP32 seed ...... Decimal numbers >If changing the language of seeds is not a requirement, then look into Electrum seeds. They are language/wordlist agnostic. So, changing the language is not a requirement. However, the current BIP-39 makes the seed dependent on the language. And I'd like to see it changed. The change will not further complicates the wallets as we can rely on 3rd conversion tools to handle different languages. One additional benefit multiple language support could bring up is, we can write down the mnemonic sentence in two or more different languages simultaneously, as a way to do checksum each other. Regarding Jon's comments: >lack of localized words for recovery phrase causes more money loss than supporting it. This also worries me. Think of the situation that one day, crypto currencies are all over the world. Everyone has some coins. Among them many just cannot handle English. We must provide a way for them to master their crypto assets. Therefore, as Jon had stressed, it is very important to support multiple languages. I really don't like it if only English could be used. And then think of those who do not have a native language wordlist. Allowing representing the seed in decimal numbers will be helpful. Thanks, Weiji --000000000000940133057a370636 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
> Do you specifically want to support changing the lang= uage of seed
words, while keeping the bip32 root seed they generate unch= anged?
What is the usecase for this?

Yes and no. Yes = that the inter-operability will be much better if the=C2=A0
same = seed could be recorded as in English and in other languages
as we= ll. There could be a standalone 3rd party tool to convert=C2=A0
m= nemonic sentences from one language to another so wallets
do not = have to support all languages. This, in reality, does not make=C2=A0
<= div>any wallet more complicated or increase any dev costs.=C2=A0
=
No that I don't think anyone would switch language for f= un.=C2=A0

And I think the symmetric function in SL= IP-0039 is a good
idea to help with migration the existing wallet= s. So this will look like:

Chinese
Engli= sh
Japanese=C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2= =A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 =C2=A0 <=3D> entropy <=3D> sym. KDF <=3D= =3D> BIP32 seed
......
Decimal numbers
>If changing the language of seeds is not a requirement, the= n look
into Electrum seeds. They are language/wordlist agnostic.
<= br>
So, changing the language is not a requirement. However, the = current BIP-39
makes the seed dependent on the language. And I= 9;d like to see it changed.=C2=A0
The change will not further com= plicates the wallets as we can rely on 3rd=C2=A0
conversion tools= to handle different languages.=C2=A0

One addition= al benefit multiple language support could bring up is, we can=C2=A0
<= div>write down the mnemonic sentence in two or more different languages
simultaneously, as a way to do checksum each other.
<= br>
Regarding Jon's comments:
>lack of localized= words for recovery phrase causes more money loss than=C2=A0
supp= orting it.

This also worries me.

Think of the situation that one day, crypto currencies are all over= the world.
Everyone has some coins. Among them many just cannot = handle English.
We must provide a way for them to master their cr= ypto assets. Therefore,=C2=A0
as Jon had stressed, it is very imp= ortant to support multiple languages.=C2=A0
I really don't li= ke it if only English could be used.

And then thin= k of those who do not have a native language wordlist. Allowing
r= epresenting the seed in decimal numbers will be helpful.=C2=A0
Thanks,
Weiji
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