From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org (smtp1.osuosl.org [IPv6:2605:bc80:3010::138]) by lists.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id 0BCA9C002D for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 11:43:14 +0000 (UTC) Received: from localhost (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTP id D891E8135B for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 11:43:12 +0000 (UTC) DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org D891E8135B Authentication-Results: smtp1.osuosl.org; dkim=pass (2048-bit key) header.d=gmail.com header.i=@gmail.com header.a=rsa-sha256 header.s=20210112 header.b=NJYCLQoa X-Virus-Scanned: amavisd-new at osuosl.org X-Spam-Flag: NO X-Spam-Score: -2.098 X-Spam-Level: X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.098 tagged_above=-999 required=5 tests=[BAYES_00=-1.9, DKIM_SIGNED=0.1, DKIM_VALID=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_AU=-0.1, DKIM_VALID_EF=-0.1, FREEMAIL_FROM=0.001, HTML_MESSAGE=0.001, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_NONE=-0.0001, SPF_HELO_NONE=0.001, SPF_PASS=-0.001] autolearn=ham autolearn_force=no Received: from smtp1.osuosl.org ([127.0.0.1]) by localhost (smtp1.osuosl.org [127.0.0.1]) (amavisd-new, port 10024) with ESMTP id Yh-4tbroqqzM for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 11:43:11 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.8.0 DKIM-Filter: OpenDKIM Filter v2.11.0 smtp1.osuosl.org 1EDD78489F Received: from mail-wm1-x334.google.com (mail-wm1-x334.google.com [IPv6:2a00:1450:4864:20::334]) by smtp1.osuosl.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 1EDD78489F for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 11:43:10 +0000 (UTC) Received: by mail-wm1-x334.google.com with SMTP id o8so870505wms.2 for ; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 04:43:10 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20210112; h=mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date:message-id:subject:to :cc; bh=r+rwvsIPZ4K6cYrOMRklAPnqmdlKT7orgfIYTsKdEbA=; b=NJYCLQoaa7DN1zMjRTMz7rpmQ+bB46Ytid+B8iRSLbK9H43x+i9LJgN/U4E6cccTvY WaFa5IoDdispGp9gMfIlLFUA2L01i0eZkwZdPRF+U8X9ckLinJE4hvuBajs6u+vLVI+L xYGLjkKIzXIP/fbijGMRTtxtVHX4hgKhgUE8GbQ+p7AA5dLT5sGmRWfV+w7S6Nu/E1Iu NhzUtBcUBhjN88P3hDpcVKLENeadEgUjIkXCtDbwL4DdpMDgKEHEdoYLxkHdCMM/ztq2 KVWD6L1T9kMORasZOh2GIotbZ4lTNejRFfR++NK5FzOSHoUkYS7SfaFB4pKTtbSQ6Oy0 +ACg== X-Google-DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=1e100.net; s=20210112; h=x-gm-message-state:mime-version:references:in-reply-to:from:date :message-id:subject:to:cc; bh=r+rwvsIPZ4K6cYrOMRklAPnqmdlKT7orgfIYTsKdEbA=; b=o9aGMaLVLCtJ53rWMg5NTxoBezx2KjMafnHn2aTvRj3faUc6K59R1Jh6xEZ9QgVzWk etYKX3eTJABuucQ6S2Hi08/jmAB4oqzu8whUhCSekAc2xeiZrNFE5ZFcLdFAUw8WBEZl l7RioprNbXGrPEy46X3Ps5Bv7TSQZoWiSlU8gsYe/bi1gFENBOwL1+eWxpl+87IBgmNZ seilO0VyS67da7fNMgrYq39Nq3ENjXc/O105/ZHJuFWHcrLTGlMj8p5GLiJcI/sGJZ6O yHfYcl0m4rFG95vUKb9gUFOpVOTGA1nAyape3U15zxa/7lp0QC1f6q/hzu8lwLrE8G4x HrfQ== X-Gm-Message-State: AJIora9NfCv9cxmYeIu1RwyZLx5HrP5PVsn30+OPeMVoYwUFsKF5sZNX Rfj3ZAAsWmAlb/S5OtHpRM6InMAf/YYpn2723FY= X-Google-Smtp-Source: AGRyM1us0HMb3WlawBTiLT+l5m3v2GayZQV9Q8h/a8CUogFXzmxnGH3uTgmpw5DpYESOjBJpG9BV7ukCXiPJSMS0irs= X-Received: by 2002:a1c:210a:0:b0:3a2:f92d:a8fb with SMTP id h10-20020a1c210a000000b003a2f92da8fbmr8381039wmh.80.1657798989153; Thu, 14 Jul 2022 04:43:09 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <164548764-bff50cb79078c9964aa8ac1e51c13070@pmq5v.m5r2.onet> In-Reply-To: From: Gino Pinuto Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 13:42:56 +0200 Message-ID: To: Erik Aronesty , Bitcoin Protocol Discussion Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000db8b2305e3c2672d" X-Mailman-Approved-At: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 12:17:52 +0000 Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] Security problems with relying on transaction fees for security X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.15 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Protocol Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Thu, 14 Jul 2022 11:43:14 -0000 --000000000000db8b2305e3c2672d Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable This is not an argument in line with bitcoin values, on that scenario only rich people will be able to mine and participate to the consensus process. Like George Soros today, he use its financial reserves to monopolize ONG in order to manipulate nation states. I would not define this a "tax", moreover a cost to maintain control over the network. Those rich holders could crate a cartel and without market dynamics all game theory stop to work and the bitcoin network value drop. We should think about how to maximise the network value instead of trying to preserve it with corruptible practices outside of market dynamics principles. On Thu, 14 Jul 2022, 12:53 Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev, < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > Fees and miner rewards are not needed at all for security at all since > long term holders can simply invest in mining to secure the value of thei= r > stake. > > Isn't it enough that the protocol has a mechanism to secure value? > > Sure fees *might* be enough. > > But in the event that they are not, large holders can burn a bit to make > sure the hashrate stays high. > > I know, I know it's a tax on the rich and it's not fair because smaller > holders are less likely to do it, but it's a miniscule tax even in the > worst case > > > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 5:35 AM vjudeu via bitcoin-dev < > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > >> > This specific approach would obviously not work as most of those >> outputs would be dust and the miner would need to waste an absurd amount= of >> block space just to grab them, but maybe there's a smarter way to do it. >> >> There is a smarter way. Just send 0.01 BTC per block to the timelocked >> outputs. Now, we have 6.25 BTC, so it means less than 0.2%. But that >> percentage will grow over time, as basic block reward will shrink, and w= e >> will have mandatory 0.01 BTC endlessly moved, until it will wrap. And gu= ess >> what: if it will be 0.01 BTC per block, wrapped every 210,000 blocks, it >> simply means you can lock 2,100 BTC in an endless circulation loop, and >> avoid this "tail supply attack". >> >> So, fortunately, even if "tail supply attackers" will win, we will still >> have a chance to counter-attack by burning those coins, or (even better)= by >> locking them in an endless circulation loop, just to satisfy their >> malicious soft-fork, whatever amount it will require. Because even if it >> will be mandatory to timelock 0.01 BTC to the current block number plus >> 210,000, then it is still perfectly valid to move that amount endlessly, >> without taking it, just to resist this "tail supply attack". >> >> >> On 2022-07-13 20:01:39 user Manuel Costa via bitcoin-dev < >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >> > What about burning all fees and keep a block reward that will smooth >> out while keeping the ~21M coins limit ? >> >> This would be a hard fork afaict as it would go against the rules of the >> coinbase transaction following the usual halving schedule. >> >> However, if instead we added a rule that fees have to be sent to an >> anyone can spend output with a timelock we might be able to achieve a >> similar thing. >> >> Highly inefficient example: >> >> - Split blocks into 144 (about a day) >> - A mined block takes all the fees and distributes them equally into 144 >> new outputs (anyone can spend) time locked to each of the 144 blocks of = the >> next day. >> - Next day, for each block, we'd have available an amount equivalent to >> the previous day total fees / 144. So we deliver previous day's fees >> smoothed out. >> >> Notes: >> 144 is arbitrary in the example. >> This specific approach would obviously not work as most of those outputs >> would be dust and the miner would need to waste an absurd amount of bloc= k >> space just to grab them, but maybe there's a smarter way to do it. >> >> >> >> >> Gino Pinuto via bitcoin-dev >> escreveu no dia quarta, 13/07/2022 =C3=A0(s) 13:19: >> What about burning all fees and keep a block reward that will smooth out >> while keeping the ~21M coins limit ? >> >> >> Benefits : >> - Miners would still be incentivized to collect higher fees transaction >> with the indirect perspective to generate more reward in future. >> - Revenues are equally distributed over time to all participants and we >> solve the overnight discrepancy. >> - Increased velocity of money will reduce the immediate supply of bitcoi= n >> cooling down the economy. >> - Reduction of velocity will have an impact on miners only if it >> persevere in the long term but short term they will still perceive the >> buffered reward. >> >> >> I don't have ideas yet on how to elegantly implement this. >> >> >> >> On Wed, 13 Jul 2022, 12:08 John Tromp via bitcoin-dev, < >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: >> > The emission curve lasts over 100 years because Bitcoin success state >> requires it to be entrenched globally. >> >> It effectively doesn't. The last 100 years from 2040-2140 only emits a >> pittance of about 0.4 of all bitcoin. >> >> What matters for proper distribution is the shape of the emission >> curve. If you emit 99% in the first year and 1% in the next 100 years, >> your emission "lasts" over 100 years, and you achieve a super low >> supply inflation rate immediately after 1 year, but it's obviously a >> terrible form of distribution. >> >> This is easy to quantify as the expected time of emission which would >> be 0.99 * 0.5yr + 0.01* 51yr =3D 2 years. >> Bitcoin is not much better in that the expected time of emission of an >> bitcoin satisfies x =3D 0.5*2yr + 0.5*(4+x) and thus equals 6 years. >> >> Monero appears much better since its tail emission yields an infinite >> expected time of emission, but if we avoid infinities by looking at >> just the soft total emission [1], which is all that is emitted before >> a 1% yearly inflation, then Monero is seen to actually be a lot worse >> than Bitcoin, due to emitting over 40% in its first year and halving >> the reward much faster. Ethereum is much worse still with its huge >> premine and PoS coins like Algorand are scraping the bottom with their >> expected emission time of 0. >> >> There's only one coin whose expected (soft) emission time is larger >> than bitcoin's, and it's about an order of magnitude larger, at 50 >> years. >> >> [1] >> https://john-tromp.medium.com/a-case-for-using-soft-total-supply-1169a18= 8d153 >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> >> _______________________________________________ >> bitcoin-dev mailing list >> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org >> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev >> > _______________________________________________ > bitcoin-dev mailing list > bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org > https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev > --000000000000db8b2305e3c2672d Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
This is not an argument in line with bitcoin values, on t= hat scenario only rich people will be able to mine and participate to the c= onsensus process.
Like George Soros today, he use its fina= ncial reserves to monopolize ONG in order to manipulate nation states. I wo= uld not define this a "tax", moreover a cost to maintain control = over the network.

Those = rich holders could crate a cartel and without market dynamics all game theo= ry stop to work and the bitcoin network value drop.
=
We should think about how to maximise the netwo= rk value instead of trying to preserve it with corruptible practices outsid= e of market dynamics principles.

=
On Thu, 14 Jul 2022, 12:53 Erik Arone= sty via bitcoin-dev, <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
Fees and miner rewards are not n= eeded at all for security at all since long term holders can simply invest = in mining to secure the value of their stake.

Isn't it enough that the protocol has a mechanism to se= cure value?

Sure fees *m= ight* be enough.=C2=A0=C2=A0

But in the event that they are not, large holders can burn a bit to ma= ke sure the hashrate stays high.

I know, I know it's a tax on the rich and it's not fair b= ecause smaller holders are less likely to do it, but it's a miniscule t= ax even in the worst case









On Thu, Jul 14, 2022, 5:35 AM vjudeu via bitc= oin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>= ; wrote:
> This specific approac= h would obviously not work as most of those outputs would be dust and the m= iner would need to waste an absurd amount of block space just to grab them,= but maybe there's a smarter way to do it.

There is a smarter way. Just send 0.01 BTC per block to the timelocked outp= uts. Now, we have 6.25 BTC, so it means less than 0.2%. But that percentage= will grow over time, as basic block reward will shrink, and we will have m= andatory 0.01 BTC endlessly moved, until it will wrap. And guess what: if i= t will be 0.01 BTC per block, wrapped every 210,000 blocks, it simply means= you can lock 2,100 BTC in an endless circulation loop, and avoid this &quo= t;tail supply attack".

So, fortunately, even if "tail supply attackers" will win, we wil= l still have a chance to counter-attack by burning those coins, or (even be= tter) by locking them in an endless circulation loop, just to satisfy their= malicious soft-fork, whatever amount it will require. Because even if it w= ill be mandatory to timelock 0.01 BTC to the current block number plus 210,= 000, then it is still perfectly valid to move that amount endlessly, withou= t taking it, just to resist this "tail supply attack".


On 2022-07-13 20:01:39 user Manuel Costa via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> What about burning all fees and keep a block reward that will smooth o= ut while keeping the ~21M coins limit ?

This would be a hard fork afaict as it would go against the rules of the co= inbase transaction following the usual halving schedule.

However, if instead we added a rule that fees have to be sent to an anyone = can spend output with a timelock we might be able to achieve a similar thin= g.

Highly inefficient example:

- Split blocks into 144 (about a day)
- A mined block takes all the fees and distributes them equally into 144 ne= w outputs (anyone can spend) time locked=C2=A0to each of the 144 blocks of = the next day.
- Next day, for each block, we'd have available an amount equivalent to= the previous day total fees / 144. So we deliver previous day's fees s= moothed out.

Notes:
144 is arbitrary in the example.
This specific approach would obviously not work as=C2=A0most of those outpu= ts would be dust and the miner would need to waste an absurd=C2=A0amount of= block space just to grab them, but maybe there's a smarter way to do i= t.




Gino Pinuto via bitcoin-dev <bitcoin-dev@l= ists.linuxfoundation.org> escreveu no dia quarta, 13/07/2022 =C3=A0(= s) 13:19:
What about burning all fees and keep a block reward that will smooth out wh= ile keeping the ~21M coins limit ?


Benefits :
- Miners would still be incentivized to collect higher fees transaction wit= h the indirect perspective to generate more reward in future.
- Revenues are equally distributed over time to all participants and we sol= ve the overnight discrepancy.
- Increased velocity of money will reduce the immediate supply of bitcoin c= ooling down the economy.
- Reduction of velocity will have an impact on miners only if it persevere = in the long term but short term they will still perceive the buffered rewar= d.


I don't have ideas yet on how to elegantly implement this.



On Wed, 13 Jul 2022, 12:08 John Tromp via bitcoin-dev, <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
> The emission curve lasts over 100 years because Bitcoin success state = requires it to be entrenched globally.

It effectively doesn't. The last 100 years from 2040-2140 only emits a<= br> pittance of about 0.4 of all bitcoin.

What matters for proper distribution is the shape of the emission
curve. If you emit 99% in the first year and 1% in the next 100 years,
your emission "lasts" over 100 years, and you achieve a super low=
supply inflation rate immediately after 1 year, but it's obviously a terrible form of distribution.

This is easy to quantify as the expected time of emission which would
be 0.99 * 0.5yr + 0.01* 51yr =3D 2 years.
Bitcoin is not much better in that the expected time of emission of an
bitcoin satisfies x =3D 0.5*2yr + 0.5*(4+x) and thus equals 6 years.

Monero appears much better since its tail emission yields an infinite
expected time of emission, but if we avoid infinities by looking at
just the soft total emission [1], which is all that is emitted before
a 1% yearly inflation, then Monero is seen to actually be a lot worse
than Bitcoin, due to emitting over 40% in its first year and halving
the reward much faster. Ethereum is much worse still with its huge
premine and PoS coins like Algorand are scraping the bottom with their
expected emission time of 0.

There's only one coin whose expected (soft) emission time is larger
than bitcoin's, and it's about an order of magnitude larger, at 50<= br> years.

[1] https://john-tromp.medium.com/a-case-for-using-soft-total-supply-1169a18= 8d153
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.li= nuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.li= nuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev

_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.li= nuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
_______________________________________________
bitcoin-dev mailing list
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
https://lists.linuxfoundati= on.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
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