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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::f36]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 5614622812f47-40212c4bf39si245821b6e.5.2025.04.30.21.59.18 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Wed, 30 Apr 2025 21:59:18 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of chrisguida@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f36 as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::f36; Received: by mail-qv1-xf36.google.com with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-6ecf0e07947so7318066d6.0 for ; Wed, 30 Apr 2025 21:59:18 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncsr9cNhc5cLUv99pRKBEFFhSXiGQEo/ptHxzhAJ2a0X+7GPg2vbbAx43wS0UtA ly1BnZxITlcYB4FX7/rTld8XWX3J2ASRS++InwUksdEctIvS6Lsa23g1DRfR66kXElSxeVhCYRA I0Pu2Ur9zNYlwMEp/bLNayNKBjfAnOOqvp7l9EQBLRzup30E0TBHi9mFw= X-Received: by 2002:a05:6214:5018:b0:6e4:3478:8ea7 with SMTP id 6a1803df08f44-6f50b8ea69amr16135366d6.4.1746075557492; Wed, 30 Apr 2025 21:59:17 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <03be4934-f0ff-4b58-880d-861d63a4f970@dashjr.org> In-Reply-To: From: Chris Guida Date: Wed, 30 Apr 2025 22:57:29 -0600 X-Gm-Features: ATxdqUF4QxDh7ea3ulZ5kYtjKSXWCRnzrHyOZCGhO0BPtd_jXWvEoFbBqjLCVPA Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Relax OP_RETURN standardness restrictions To: Anthony Towns Cc: Bitcoin Development Mailing List Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="0000000000005afad206340be506" X-Original-Sender: ChrisGuida@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=MqOU1L1k; spf=pass (google.com: domain of chrisguida@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::f36 as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=chrisguida@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --0000000000005afad206340be506 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Hi AJ, thanks for the feedback. >Fees are under 3sat/vb; there's no attack. Excess block space is being filled by low-value spam, but that's expected and, in a permissionless system, unavoidable. This is just a temporary cease-fire while the spammers reload their ammunition. There is obviously about to be another wave, otherwise what is the point of eliminating OP_RETURN restrictions? >They subside when the people creating the spam realise they're wasting money paying for fees. Yes, and then the money printer makes sure that there is always enough easy money sloshing around in the economy so that more pop up where the old ones dropped out. This can and will continue indefinitely if we do nothing. >Acting tough about it at best has zero effect, and at worst generates publicity for the spammers as media and influencers gather around the drame, making the activity more profitable. It worked great in 2014! >Encoding data into random protocols is a standard exercise, and doing so in ways that are undetectable to third parties is also standard, albeit more complicated. In a permissionless system, attempting to filter encoded data is a losing proposition. >Well, I guess if you can convince someone to pay you by the hour to write the filters, you've got yourself a job that will never be finished, so really it's only a losing proposition if you ever hope to actually succeed at it. You seem to have only read about half of my message. I guess I should have written something shorter! I'll repeat the relevant part here in case you missed it: "We don't need to make sure no spam ever reaches the blockchain. That is, of course, impossible. All we need to do is show active hostility to the spammers, and the worst schemes (the ones that rely on a consistent transaction format) will be impossible to maintain, and will therefore lose funding. Of course there will be hobbyist spammers here and there, but that's much less damaging." My proposal is not to counter literally every type of spam. Just the ones that have protocols relying on consistent transaction formats. Creating specific filters against just these worst offenders should be a strong deterrent against creating more of them. This class of spam requires coordination among a lot of people to choose and promote a stable format, so disrupting their formats with targeted filters should have them fleeing to other chains in no time. Conveniently for us, this class of spam is also the riskiest to create, since it usually involves investing money upfront to launch the Ponzi. If the launch goes poorly because bitcoiners were not accommodating, then the investors lose their money. The financial pain this causes teaches a lesson that is usually remembered. Namely: to spam somewhere else! >Not every form of transaction spam is about jpegs or altcoins. Thanks for pointing this out! Of course the strategy outlined above does not apply to spam attacks that look like real financial activity. To prevent utxoset/blockchain bloating in those cases, we will need something more drastic, such as smaller blocks as you mentioned. And of course, smaller blocks don't help with *high*-value (high-fee) spam, which the recent ordinals/runes waves were. My worry with high-value spam is that if it keeps growing, it could make it practically impossible for people to just use bitcoin to pay for stuff. (Lightning helps somewhat with this if you already have a channel, but if you don't it's very painful, and onboarding new bitcoiners to Lightning during these fee spikes is terrible.= ) Best regards, --Chris On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 10:37=E2=80=AFAM Anthony Towns = wrote: > On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 11:39:01PM -0600, Chris Guida wrote: > > We are under a spam attack. > > Fees are under 3sat/vb; there's no attack. Excess block space is being > filled by low-value spam, but that's expected and, in a permissionless > system, unavoidable. > > > This is not the first time this has happened. > > Bitcoin has endured several spam attacks in the past. They subside when > > bitcoin core devs show that they are serious about countering the > attacks. > > They subside when the people creating the spam realise they're wasting > money paying for fees. > > Acting tough about it at best has zero effect, and at worst generates > publicity for the spammers as media and influencers gather around the > drame, making the activity more profitable. > > > Unfortunately, the bitcoin core project made a misstep when it rejected > > this PR[3] from Luke-jr to filter transactions using the op_false op_if > > envelope to exploit the witness discount. > > Encoding data into random protocols is a standard exercise, and doing > so in ways that are undetectable to third parties is also standard, > albeit more complicated. In a permissionless system, attempting to > filter encoded data is a losing proposition. > > Well, I guess if you can convince someone to pay you by the hour to write > the filters, you've got yourself a job that will never be finished, > so really it's only a losing proposition if you ever hope to actually > succeed at it. > > > Another trope from the anti-filter crowd I keep seeing is that spam > > protection is a "cat-and-mouse" game. Well, the cat won in 2014 and the > > mouse didn't come back until 2023. > > Not every form of transaction spam is about jpegs or altcoins. There > were significant spam attacks on the network in 2015, see > > https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/July_2015_flood_attack > > https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/coinwallet-plans-bitcoin-dust-attack-september-= create-30-day-transaction-backlog-1515981 > > https://nyuscholars.nyu.edu/en/publications/stressing-out-bitcoin-stress-= testing > > eg. The spam during that time was particularly harmful, because most > wallets failed to calculate fees on a per-vbyte basis and replace-by-fee > was rarely supported, leading to many transactions getting stuck in the > mempool for weeks or months as a result. > > The only sustainable way to avoid low value spam appearing on the > blockchain (whatever form that spam might take) is to prevent low value > *transactions* from appearing on the blockchain. I don't think that's > particularly desirable at this time; but it's something that could be > achieved (even on a temporary basis) by lowering the block size. > > Cheers, > aj > > --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAAANnUxnEfO7VexaK_V%2BRc1ZG8tO1pLAU0gsDJb8C82hiwgQ-Q%40mail.gmail.com. --0000000000005afad206340be506 Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable
Hi AJ, thanks for the feedback.

<= div>>Fees are under 3sat/vb; there's no attack. Excess block space i= s being
filled by low-value spam, but that's expected and, in a permissionless<= br> system, unavoidable.

This is just a temporary cease-fire while the s= pammers reload their ammunition. There is obviously about to be another wav= e, otherwise what is the point of eliminating OP_RETURN restrictions?

>They subside when the people creating the spam realise = they're wasting
money paying for fees.

Yes, and then the money pri= nter makes sure that there is always enough easy money sloshing around in t= he economy so that more pop up where the old ones dropped out. This can and= will continue indefinitely if we do nothing.

>= Acting tough about it at best has zero effect, and at worst generates
publicity for the spammers as media and influencers gather around the
drame, making the activity more profitable.

It worked great in 2014!=

>Encoding data into random protocols is a standard= exercise, and doing
so in ways that are undetectable to third parties is also standard,
albeit more complicated. In a permissionless system, attempting to
filter encoded data is a losing proposition.

>W= ell, I guess if you can convince someone to pay you by the hour to write the filters, you've got yourself a job that will never be finished,
so really it's only a losing proposition if you ever hope to actually succeed at it.

You seem to have only read about half of my message. I guess I should have= written something shorter!

I'll repeat the re= levant part here in case you missed it:

"We d= on't need to make sure no spam ever reaches the blockchain. That is, of course, impossible. All we need to do is show active hostility to=20 the spammers, and the worst schemes (the ones that rely on a consistent=20 transaction format) will be impossible to maintain, and will therefore=20 lose funding. Of course there will be hobbyist spammers here and there,=20 but that's much less damaging."

My propos= al is not to counter literally every type of spam. Just the ones that have = protocols relying on consistent transaction formats. Creating specific filt= ers against just these worst offenders should be a strong deterrent against= creating more of them. This class of spam requires coordination among a lo= t of people to choose and promote a stable format, so disrupting their form= ats with targeted filters should have them fleeing to other chains in no ti= me. Conveniently for us, this class of spam is also the riskiest to create,= since it usually involves investing money upfront to launch the Ponzi. If = the launch goes poorly because bitcoiners were not accommodating, then the = investors lose their money. The financial pain this causes teaches a lesson= that is usually remembered. Namely: to spam somewhere else!
=
>Not every form of transaction spam is about jpegs or alt= coins.

Thanks for pointing this out! Of course the= strategy outlined above does not apply to spam attacks that look like real= financial activity. To prevent utxoset/blockchain bloating in those cases,= we will need something more drastic, such as smaller blocks as you mention= ed.

And of course, smaller blocks don't help w= ith high-value (high-fee) spam, which the recent ordinals/runes wave= s were. My worry with high-value spam is that if it keeps growing, it could= make it practically impossible for people to just use bitcoin to pay for s= tuff. (Lightning helps somewhat with this if you already have a channel, bu= t if you don't it's very painful, and onboarding new bitcoiners to = Lightning during these fee spikes is terrible.)

Be= st regards,

--Chris

On Wed, Apr 30, 2025 at 10:37=E2=80=AFAM Anthony Towns <aj@erisian.com.au> wrote:
On Tue, Apr 29, 2025 at 11:39:01PM = -0600, Chris Guida wrote:
> We are under a spam attack.

Fees are under 3sat/vb; there's no attack. Excess block space is being<= br> filled by low-value spam, but that's expected and, in a permissionless<= br> system, unavoidable.

> This is not the first time this has happened.
> Bitcoin has endured several spam attacks in the past. They subside whe= n
> bitcoin core devs show that they are serious about countering the atta= cks.

They subside when the people creating the spam realise they're wasting<= br> money paying for fees.

Acting tough about it at best has zero effect, and at worst generates
publicity for the spammers as media and influencers gather around the
drame, making the activity more profitable.

> Unfortunately, the bitcoin core project made a misstep when it rejecte= d
> this PR[3] from Luke-jr to filter transactions using the op_false op_i= f
> envelope to exploit the witness discount.

Encoding data into random protocols is a standard exercise, and doing
so in ways that are undetectable to third parties is also standard,
albeit more complicated. In a permissionless system, attempting to
filter encoded data is a losing proposition.

Well, I guess if you can convince someone to pay you by the hour to write the filters, you've got yourself a job that will never be finished,
so really it's only a losing proposition if you ever hope to actually succeed at it.

> Another trope from the anti-filter crowd I keep seeing is that spam > protection is a "cat-and-mouse" game. Well, the cat won in 2= 014 and the
> mouse didn't come back until 2023.

Not every form of transaction spam is about jpegs or altcoins. There
were significant spam attacks on the network in 2015, see

https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/July_2015_flood_attack
https://www.ibtimes.co.uk/coinwallet-plans-bitcoin-dust-attac= k-september-create-30-day-transaction-backlog-1515981
https://nyuscholars.= nyu.edu/en/publications/stressing-out-bitcoin-stress-testing

eg. The spam during that time was particularly harmful, because most
wallets failed to calculate fees on a per-vbyte basis and replace-by-fee was rarely supported, leading to many transactions getting stuck in the
mempool for weeks or months as a result.

The only sustainable way to avoid low value spam appearing on the
blockchain (whatever form that spam might take) is to prevent low value
*transactions* from appearing on the blockchain. I don't think that'= ;s
particularly desirable at this time; but it's something that could be achieved (even on a temporary basis) by lowering the block size.

Cheers,
aj

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