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From: Hector Chu <hectorchu@gmail.com>
To: Mark Friedenbach <mark@friedenbach.org>
Cc: Bitcoin Dev <bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org>
Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is
Date: Sun, 9 Aug 2015 21:14:55 +0100	[thread overview]
Message-ID: <CAAO2FKHyNC6PT+i2pYo88eeb-wdkJdeVjmqzC=PetyF6yO=+Lw@mail.gmail.com> (raw)
In-Reply-To: <CAOG=w-skYq84=PtN45FB-dGoY1783Jz7K1T16e2JVGjLazWuyA@mail.gmail.com>

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In the Lightning network it is assumed that the balances can always be
settled on the blockchain if any of the parties along the channel has a
problem. What if the fee on the settlement transactions is not high enough
to enter the blockchain? You can't do replace-by-fee after the fact. Do the
fees always have to assume worst case scenarios on the Bitcoin fee market?

On 9 August 2015 at 19:54, Mark Friedenbach via bitcoin-dev <
bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:

> Tom, you appear to be misunderstanding how lightning network and
> micropayment hub-and-spoke models in general work.
>
> > But neither can Bob receive money, unless payment hub has
> advanced it to the channel (or (2) below applies).  Nothing requires the
> payment hub to do this.
>
> On the contrary the funds were advanced by the hub on the creation of the
> channel. There is no credit involved. if the funds aren't already available
> for Bob to immediately claim his balance, the payment doesn't go through in
> the first place.
>
> On Sun, Aug 9, 2015 at 11:46 AM, Tom Harding via bitcoin-dev <
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote:
>
>> On 8/4/2015 4:27 AM, Pieter Wuille via bitcoin-dev wrote:
>>
>> > Don't turn Bitcoin into something uninteresting, please.
>>
>> Consider how Bob will receive money using the Lightning Network.
>>
>> Bob receives a payment by applying a contract to his local payment
>> channel, increasing the amount payable to him when the channel is closed.
>>
>> There are two possible sources of funding for Bob's increased claim.
>> They can appear alone, or in combination:
>>
>>
>> Funding Source (1)
>> A deposit from Bob's payment hub
>>
>> Bob can receive funds, if his payment hub has made a deposit to the
>> channel.  Another name for this is "credit".
>>
>> This credit has no default risk: Bob cannot just take payment hub's
>> deposit. But neither can Bob receive money, unless payment hub has
>> advanced it to the channel (or (2) below applies).  Nothing requires the
>> payment hub to do this.
>>
>> This is a 3rd-party dependency totally absent with plain old bitcoin.
>> It will come with a fee and, in an important way, it is worse than the
>> current banking system.  If a bank will not even open an account for Bob
>> today, why would a payment hub lock up hard bitcoin to allow Bob to be
>> paid through a Poon-Dryja channel?
>>
>>
>> Funding Source (2)
>> Bob's previous spends
>>
>> If Bob has previously spent from the channel, decreasing his claim on
>> its funds (which he could have deposited himself), that claim can be
>> re-increased.
>>
>> To avoid needing credit (1), Bob has an incentive to consolidate
>> spending and income in the same payment channel, just as with today's
>> banks.  This is at odds with the idea that Bob will have accounts with
>> many payment hubs.  It is an incentive for centralization.
>>
>>
>> With Lightning Network, Bob will need a powerful middleman to send and
>> receive money effectively.  *That* is uninteresting to me.
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> bitcoin-dev mailing list
>> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
>> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> bitcoin-dev mailing list
> bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org
> https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/mailman/listinfo/bitcoin-dev
>
>

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  reply	other threads:[~2015-08-09 20:15 UTC|newest]

Thread overview: 111+ messages / expand[flat|nested]  mbox.gz  Atom feed  top
2015-07-30 14:25 [bitcoin-dev] Block size following technological growth Pieter Wuille
2015-07-30 15:04 ` Greg Sanders
2015-07-30 15:12 ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-30 16:23   ` Jameson Lopp
2015-07-30 16:36     ` Bryan Bishop
2015-07-30 16:43       ` Jameson Lopp
2015-07-30 16:36   ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-07-30 17:51     ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-30 18:00       ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-30 16:56   ` Gary Mulder
2015-07-30 17:13     ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-07-30 16:20 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-07-30 16:41   ` Suhas Daftuar
2015-07-30 16:48   ` Adam Back
2015-07-30 16:49   ` Pieter Wuille
2015-07-31 10:16     ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-31 11:43       ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-07-31 11:51       ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-31 12:15         ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-31 13:07           ` Marcel Jamin
2015-07-31 14:33           ` Jorge Timón
2015-07-31 14:58             ` Mike Hearn
2015-07-31 15:28               ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-07-31 20:09               ` Elliot Olds
2015-08-04 10:35               ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-04 11:04                 ` Hector Chu
2015-08-04 11:27                   ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-04 11:34                     ` Hector Chu
2015-08-04 12:10                       ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 13:13                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-04 13:28                         ` Hector Chu
2015-08-04 13:42                           ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 17:59                           ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-04 13:12                     ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-04 13:54                       ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-04 14:30                       ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 14:43                         ` [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: " Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 14:45                       ` [bitcoin-dev] " Alex Morcos
2015-08-05  8:14                       ` Gareth Williams
2015-08-04 11:59                   ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-04 12:19                     ` Hector Chu
2015-08-04 13:34                       ` Venzen Khaosan
2015-08-04 13:37                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-05  7:29                     ` Elliot Olds
2015-08-06  1:26                       ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-06 13:40                         ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 14:06                           ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-06 14:21                             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 14:53                               ` Pieter Wuille
     [not found]                                 ` <CABsx9T0B2bZrFHxYR_QNwBmxskQx31zt=QE5BJAYjcOo7wbo3A@mail.gmail.com>
2015-08-06 15:24                                   ` [bitcoin-dev] Fwd: " Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 15:26                                     ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-06 18:43                                       ` Michael Naber
2015-08-06 18:52                                         ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-07 16:06                                           ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-07 16:30                                             ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-07 17:00                                               ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-07 17:09                                                 ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-07 21:35                                                   ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-07 22:53                                                     ` Adam Back
2015-08-08 16:54                                                       ` Dave Scotese
2015-08-07 17:50                                               ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-07 18:05                                                 ` Jameson Lopp
2015-08-07 18:10                                                 ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-07 21:43                                                   ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-07 22:00                                                   ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-06 16:19                                 ` [bitcoin-dev] " Tom Harding
2015-08-06 21:56                               ` Peter Todd
2015-08-06 15:25                           ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-06 16:03                             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 16:11                               ` Mike Hearn
2015-08-06 17:15                               ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-06 19:42                                 ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-06 20:01                                   ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-06 21:51                                   ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-06 23:09                         ` Elliot Olds
2015-08-10 19:28                           ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-11  5:48                             ` Elliot Olds
2015-08-09 18:46                   ` [bitcoin-dev] What Lightning Is Tom Harding
2015-08-09 18:54                     ` Mark Friedenbach
2015-08-09 20:14                       ` Hector Chu [this message]
     [not found]                         ` <CAOG=w-s9KsaPwveSpgdvsVTWUDV77YY7Em7NZGyxSQMMCccYSg@mail.gmail.com>
2015-08-09 20:48                           ` Hector Chu
2015-08-10  4:48                             ` Joseph Poon
2015-08-10 17:03                         ` odinn
2015-08-10 17:14                           ` Pieter Wuille
2015-08-10 17:45                             ` odinn
2015-08-09 21:27                       ` Tom Harding
2015-08-09 21:40                         ` Chris Pacia
2015-08-09 21:45                         ` Hector Chu
2015-08-09 21:57                           ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-09 22:03                             ` Hector Chu
2015-08-09 22:36                               ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-10  1:52                           ` Tom Harding
2015-08-10  3:31                             ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-09 22:06                         ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-09 22:09                           ` Hector Chu
2015-08-09 22:27                             ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-09 22:30                               ` Hector Chu
2015-08-09 22:44                             ` Gavin Andresen
2015-08-09 22:51                               ` Btc Drak
2015-08-10  8:27                                 ` Thomas Zander
2015-08-10  8:36                                   ` Patrick Strateman
2015-08-10  4:39                               ` Joseph Poon
2015-08-10 21:02                               ` Anthony Towns
2015-08-10 21:19                                 ` Anthony Towns
2015-08-10 21:43                                   ` Adam Back
2015-08-11  9:01                                     ` Hector Chu
2015-08-11 17:17                                       ` Simon Liu
2015-07-31 14:52           ` [bitcoin-dev] Block size following technological growth Bryan Bishop
2015-07-30 17:46   ` Jorge Timón
2015-08-02 22:35   ` Anthony Towns
2015-07-30 20:20 ` Thomas Zander

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