From mboxrd@z Thu Jan 1 00:00:00 1970 Return-Path: Received: from smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (smtp1.linux-foundation.org [172.17.192.35]) by mail.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id 5E9887AD for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:45:58 +0000 (UTC) X-Greylist: whitelisted by SQLgrey-1.7.6 Received: from mail-io0-f173.google.com (mail-io0-f173.google.com [209.85.223.173]) by smtp1.linuxfoundation.org (Postfix) with ESMTPS id E873A1B0 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:45:57 +0000 (UTC) Received: by iodb91 with SMTP id b91so123820956iod.1 for ; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 14:45:57 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=20120113; h=mime-version:in-reply-to:references:date:message-id:subject:from:to :cc:content-type; bh=nSBc1zsK+FTeTBCCjTGwtezhPVNygBboJHb7VX9DgSo=; b=NnqqYwzUmqfBU6Hfm+IEk4jbO/BBkvukUq+I1z5c6PMG58bMolO8KFLySk3LhW8K5r /arLzcAp2BhlfHuuVdqqfF2GJVQGPWOmAE2MVNVaZjjTYUszOniV17+tw+NwvYVvwyVq oSdJtb8y8Ln43EKIAUE/RbrHyB8vi4/Z6Jdeu5r5dZ6pZxyXDykJnNmQmcliZkPxSXC6 HXYLu0ioP6oB4NfAAUkTLA+MwTSi7AW9V3iIrUZRAmDYc3eOxoZFFZG8VMGzprQ7zGFx AfjI4YSp2qWUq7MRHBKbzjPykkmhLzYGZOKGH85OHpRBpxkqEPcy9Cyf1qD5exy556fS k5Hg== MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Received: by 10.107.137.195 with SMTP id t64mr22568614ioi.150.1439243157278; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 14:45:57 -0700 (PDT) Received: by 10.107.14.136 with HTTP; Mon, 10 Aug 2015 14:45:57 -0700 (PDT) In-Reply-To: <8185694.hShCHQnpze@coldstorage> References: <8185694.hShCHQnpze@coldstorage> Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:45:57 +0000 Message-ID: From: Gregory Maxwell To: Thomas Zander Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 X-Spam-Status: No, score=-2.7 required=5.0 tests=BAYES_00,DKIM_SIGNED, DKIM_VALID, DKIM_VALID_AU, FREEMAIL_FROM, RCVD_IN_DNSWL_LOW autolearn=ham version=3.3.1 X-Spam-Checker-Version: SpamAssassin 3.3.1 (2010-03-16) on smtp1.linux-foundation.org Cc: Bitcoin Dev Subject: Re: [bitcoin-dev] trust X-BeenThere: bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.12 Precedence: list List-Id: Bitcoin Development Discussion List-Unsubscribe: , List-Archive: List-Post: List-Help: List-Subscribe: , X-List-Received-Date: Mon, 10 Aug 2015 21:45:58 -0000 On Sat, Aug 8, 2015 at 6:10 AM, Thomas Zander via bitcoin-dev wrote: > The idea that Bitcoins very reason for existence is to avoid trusting anyone > but yourself is something I've heard before, and I have to comment because it > is a destructive thought. It is very much untrue because we don't live in a > black/white world. [...] > The point was NOT to trust no-one, the point was to trust everyone, but keep > everyone honest by keeping the ledger open and publicly available. I think you are drawing a disction that does not exist; rather it's a disagreement about terminology. If a system exists that provides high confidence of faithful behavior even from malicious parties, then it's one this community would call "trustless" (assuming the security properties are strong enough). The result is a system where it's possible to trust everyone. Trust in this case has multiple meanings. In one meaning trust is an (well founded) expectation of faithful behavior. In another it is a blind reliance. When "trust everyone" is used, it's speaking to the first definition, when the trustless definition is used it's referring to the second defintion-- without blind faith. A trustless (second def) system allows its users to trust (first def) everyone, even the inherently untrustworthy (second def). In doing so, the considerable cost and inequality created by the maintaince of trust (second definition) relations is mitigated, and the availablity of faithful performance increased. Doing so is a prerequsite to having a strongly decenteralized system, because otherwise trust requiremets drive the enviroment towards natural monopolies (as it's cheaper and more effective for more people to trust (second def) a smaller number of parties. Less philosophically, if you're willing to have systems defined by trust (first definition) (e.g. you do not believe that what I descibed above coveys value, or hope that witl a small number of very trusted parties external factors will transform blind faith into a rational expectation of faithful performance) then there are _much_ more technically superior ways to structure a system than Bitcoin does today-- ones that acheive much greater performance, flexibility, reliablity, and better security (ignoring any insecurity that arises as a result of the trusted parties strong assumptions). If one wants to layer trust based things on top of a trust mitigating framework, they can do so-- and enjoy efficiencies from doing so. Doing the converse doesn't appear really possible.