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[2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d]) by gmr-mx.google.com with ESMTPS id 41be03b00d2f7-b2eceaf63efsi557080a12.1.2025.06.03.10.00.54 for (version=TLS1_3 cipher=TLS_AES_128_GCM_SHA256 bits=128/128); Tue, 03 Jun 2025 10:00:54 -0700 (PDT) Received-SPF: pass (google.com: domain of gmaxwell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d as permitted sender) client-ip=2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d; Received: by mail-pl1-x62d.google.com with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-234bfe37cccso75111685ad.0 for ; Tue, 03 Jun 2025 10:00:54 -0700 (PDT) X-Gm-Gg: ASbGncujPgSrwsZkINJeib/0mswgskGIzcVG73ZeYbJfPAPBDNhXh6CQmOE1giitn9o NgB7jVf5/abknCnHfDNPFgdFy9acTWdtFjk68mF3FWhVK+4ZScf56cxhG1JgbTrjlD60UTvyRQ8 9JVIk9N2TLI25CuMVHnYncfEPE6D8AAzhA X-Received: by 2002:a17:903:18a:b0:234:986c:66e4 with SMTP id d9443c01a7336-235390e0c0bmr258256635ad.12.1748970053737; Tue, 03 Jun 2025 10:00:53 -0700 (PDT) MIME-Version: 1.0 References: <4BA2B86E-3E4B-416B-9237-AFD66FC4E37A@sprovoost.nl> In-Reply-To: <4BA2B86E-3E4B-416B-9237-AFD66FC4E37A@sprovoost.nl> From: Greg Maxwell Date: Tue, 3 Jun 2025 17:00:42 +0000 X-Gm-Features: AX0GCFsEykQFq-6Lw97YeCeaXohNWUO7Mp80LyFWeKnh1ctZPYpoPHvXbcFCM3w Message-ID: Subject: Re: [bitcoindev] Censorship Resistant Transaction Relay - Taking out the garbage(man) To: Sjors Provoost Cc: bitcoindev@googlegroups.com Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="000000000000c6a3180636add25c" X-Original-Sender: gmaxwell@gmail.com X-Original-Authentication-Results: gmr-mx.google.com; dkim=pass header.i=@gmail.com header.s=20230601 header.b=Hzoml+56; spf=pass (google.com: domain of gmaxwell@gmail.com designates 2607:f8b0:4864:20::62d as permitted sender) smtp.mailfrom=gmaxwell@gmail.com; dmarc=pass (p=NONE sp=QUARANTINE dis=NONE) header.from=gmail.com; dara=pass header.i=@googlegroups.com Precedence: list Mailing-list: list bitcoindev@googlegroups.com; contact bitcoindev+owners@googlegroups.com List-ID: X-Google-Group-Id: 786775582512 List-Post: , List-Help: , List-Archive: , List-Unsubscribe: , X-Spam-Score: -0.5 (/) --000000000000c6a3180636add25c Content-Type: text/plain; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable On Tue, Jun 3, 2025 at 8:00=E2=80=AFAM Sjors Provoost = wrote: > Then all you've achieved is an incentive to submit directly to miners, > making those miners more profitable. Congrats, you didn't fix spam, you > didn't rate limit anything and you made mining more centralised. > That's not all it does: it also created infrastructure for impeding other kinds of transactions which may be much more time sensitive than the spam transactions and may be much less able to use direct submission. No one is going to (convincingly) argue that including a monkey jpeg in a transaction is _unlawful_ and so for commercial miners there is always going to be a price where they will include them-- and that price is lower once excessive filtering pays for the creation of submission mechanisms (as it already has done). But when the censorship is backed by threat (even if vague or unconstitutional) of civil or criminal legal penalties, the avenue to just bypass may be much less available. So for example, in an alternative universe: Bitcoin goes along with Guida and after having built this massive edifice of transaction censorship the Bitcoin developers lose their UK lawsuit Craig S Wright after he successfully bribes a judge, and now have a the UK courts imposing a worldwide order to freeze any of their bitcoin address under threat of imprisonment. The censorship is deployed via the prebuilt censorship infrastructure, and willingness to bypass it is greatly decreased because doing so would land the bypasser a UK arrest warrant. Could they still get their transactions through? Probably but at much greater costs and delays, creating a significant harm. Not building the censorship infrastructure (even though you intend it for 'good' purposes) and instead building anti-censorship infrastructure leaves us all with a better world. A world that, sure, sometimes has higher transaction fees due to waves of well funded spam--- but that's just the cost of having limited capacity on the network to preserve the ability to validate and to provide income for security. It's not a cost of spam itself: Even if there was never any spam at all there would sometimes be elevated transaction fees due to surges in demand. Essentially the energy behind this anti-spam stuff is just relitigating the blocksize war, but doing it under the cover(?) of undermining a foundational property of Bitcoin: that bitcoin was created to escape other people passing judgement over which existing transactions are okay or not. The Bitcoin project has never seen that to be its role. Prior to Bitcoin your ability to transact "could always be overridden by the admin based on his judgment call weighing the principle [...] against other concerns, or at the behest of his superiors." If someone cares that someone else is using bitcoin for things they don't like, or that being outbid can delay their transactions-- then they ought to be using something else. This was settled long ago. That's the problem with all this filtering stuff: It works better, to the extent it works at all, against sincere usage which lacks the flexibility of spam (or outright attacks). Sincere usage cares that the network validates its rules, it has to spend specific coins, specific values, use specific fields. Collateral usage (a term that I think better captures most of what people are calling spam)-- where the goal of the transaction isn't really to move Bitcoins-- can do virtually *anything* with its transactions, it is far more flexible and so it is less vulnerable to attempts to filter it. --=20 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "= Bitcoin Development Mailing List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an e= mail to bitcoindev+unsubscribe@googlegroups.com. To view this discussion visit https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/bitcoindev/= CAAS2fgT3gyra4BNN1zDVz%3Dn%3DtmteZLC4xuzTWSm_s0T6Rw2MJA%40mail.gmail.com. --000000000000c6a3180636add25c Content-Type: text/html; charset="UTF-8" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

No one is going to (co= nvincingly) argue that including a monkey jpeg in a transaction is _unlawfu= l_ and so for commercial miners there is always going to be a price where t= hey will include them-- and that price is lower once excessive filtering pa= ys for the creation of submission mechanisms (as it already has done).

But when the censorship is backed by thre= at (even if vague or unconstitutional) of civil or criminal legal penalties= , the avenue to just bypass may be much less available.

So for example, in an alternative universe: Bitcoin goes= along with Guida and after having built this massive edifice of transactio= n censorship the Bitcoin developers lose their UK lawsuit Craig S Wright af= ter he successfully bribes a judge, and now have a the UK courts imposing a= worldwide order to freeze any of their bitcoin address under threat of imp= risonment.=C2=A0 The censorship is deployed via the prebuilt censorship inf= rastructure, and willingness to bypass it is greatly decreased because doin= g so would land the bypasser a UK arrest warrant. Could they still get thei= r transactions through?=C2=A0 Probably but at much greater costs and delays= , creating a significant harm.=C2=A0 Not building the censorship infrastruc= ture (even though you intend it for 'good' purposes) and instead bu= ilding anti-censorship infrastructure leaves us all with a better world.

A world that, sure, sometimes has highe= r transaction fees due to waves of well funded spam--- but that's just = the cost of having limited capacity on the network to preserve the ability = to validate and to provide income for security.=C2=A0 It's not a cost o= f spam itself:=C2=A0 Even if there was never any spam at all there would so= metimes be elevated transaction fees due to surges in demand.=C2=A0 Essenti= ally the energy behind this anti-spam stuff is just relitigating the blocks= ize war, but doing it under the cover(?) of undermining a foundational prop= erty of Bitcoin: that bitcoin was created to escape other people passing ju= dgement over which existing transactions are okay or not.=C2=A0 The Bitcoin= project has never seen that to be its role.

Prior to Bitcoin your ability to transact "could always be ove= rridden by the admin based on his judgment call=20 weighing the principle [...] against other concerns, or at the=20 behest of his superiors."=C2=A0 If someone cares that someone else is = using bitcoin for things they don't like, or that being outbid can dela= y their transactions-- then they ought to be using something else.=C2=A0 Th= is was settled long ago.

That's t= he problem with all this filtering stuff:=C2=A0 It works better, to the ext= ent it works at all, against sincere usage which lacks the flexibility of s= pam (or outright attacks).=C2=A0 Sincere usage cares that the network valid= ates its rules, it has to spend specific coins, specific values, use specif= ic fields.=C2=A0=C2=A0 Collateral usage (a term that I think better capture= s most of what people are calling spam)-- where the goal of the transaction= isn't really to move Bitcoins-- can do virtually *anything* with its t= ransactions, it is far more flexible and so it is less vulnerable to attemp= ts to filter it.
=C2= =A0

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